Gun Control & RKBA

Straw Man

(6,911 posts)

77. No, it hasn't.

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 01:40 PM

Oct 2015

It's been done

Most of Europe has access to rifles and almost no access to handguns..

Guess what, people aren't getting huge numbers of shotguns and rifles and killing themselves or committing crimes...

If you are suggesting that Europe has drastically reduced suicide and violent crime by banning handguns, then you're whistling in the wind. Show me that correlation independent of any other factors and you might have something to discuss. Europe didn't always ban handguns. You would have to show rate changes that coincide with bans to even begin the discussion.

You list two examples of murder by shotgun, but the statistics don't back up the idea that people kill themselves as frequently with shotguns as they do with handguns... not even close really...

Please read carefully. First, those were examples of suicide, not murder. Second, my contention is that it is quite possible to kill oneself with a shotgun in the absence of a handgun, not that it is currently done in equivalent numbers. And let me emphasize once more that suicide is almost always a one-shot process; a single-shot long gun is more than adequate for the task and will be used if that is all that is available.

BECAUSE

The rest of the world manages to live with out an epidemic of gun violence. It's possible. All you have to do is hop on a plane and visit any industrialised nation and check for yourself. Where I live, the police don't even carry guns, and people are cowering in their homes at night afraid of armed intruders. Kids don't have to go through metal detectors at schools or have school shooting drills. You may THINK that the "freedom" you have is worth all the death and fear and misery, and worth raising kids to be aware that they could be mowed down at any moment, but no one I know here thinks it is... and neither do many Americans.

I have traveled to many industrialised nations, and lived in one -- Japan -- for almost a decade. I currently do not live in fear of being "mowed down," and I do enjoy many freedoms that the residents of that fine nation never have and never will enjoy, including the right not to be detained for several days by police without charge or counsel, the right to marry a person of my own gender if I should choose to do so, and yes, the right to keep and bear arms.

Hand guns are owned by 25% of the population, but are used in 8/10 gun crimes. Take them away and you'll only impact 1 of 4 american's right to carry a specific type of gun, and you'll take the main weapon in violent crime off the street.

Only to be replaced by whatever else is available, which you can then proceed to try to ban. Pointy knives, anyone?

I'm not anti-hunting, and not anti-gun per se, but I am completely unconvinced that the Founding Fathers would see 30K dead Americans a year and just shrug it off as the cost of freedom..

Considering that they lived with homicide rates that equaled or exceeded those of present-day America, I think you are very wrong.

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Questions the left won't discuss about gun control, but should - and soon. [View all] EdwardBernays Oct 2015 OP

I think registration of all handguns would be safeinOhio Oct 2015 #1

Thanks EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #2

New York has had that ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #43

In that case safeinOhio Oct 2015 #47

It's the only way EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #50

It will never happen. Straw Man Oct 2015 #56

well.. EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #60

Are you sure ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #61

See here's the thing EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #65

The thing(s). Straw Man Oct 2015 #68

It's been done EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #70

No, it hasn't. Straw Man Oct 2015 #77

A push was made to ban handguns in the early-mid 70s... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #82

No attempt has ever been made EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #87

Google "National Coalition to Ban Hanguns..." Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #94

forming a coalition EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #111

Well, even I wouldn't equate the anti-gunners with flying pig advocacy.... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #131

You forget we aren't searched when entering NY state. jeff47 Oct 2015 #53

Prohibition banned alcohol from sea to shining sea. Straw Man Oct 2015 #57

Somehow, it works for every other industrialized nation. jeff47 Oct 2015 #62

The picture is far more complex ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #63

I've heard that exact argument used about MJ, against CO. beevul Oct 2015 #135

Fact check dot org safeinOhio Oct 2015 #69

welcome to DU discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #3

thanks... and... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #4

other than a media campaign about... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #7

wellll.... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #9

politics is about barter discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #10

the problem there EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #11

and what is it that pro-control is bringing to the table? n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #12

welll... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #14

sure but you would need to PROVE that your law would absolutely improve... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #16

ehhh EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #20

one of the issues is the lack of common ground discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #23

Our present laws have cut the murder rate in half hack89 Oct 2015 #35

no EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #51

So isn't the solution to a suicide "epidemic " hack89 Oct 2015 #59

one problem discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #64

absolutely not EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #66

But there are no gun control measures short of confiscation hack89 Oct 2015 #67

lol EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #71

You at least admit you have no realistic solution hack89 Oct 2015 #74

Yup, Ireland's always been such a peacful, safe place with no violence to speak of DonP Oct 2015 #75

Theres that ugly word again. beevul Oct 2015 #13

decades of gun control is a stretch EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #15

See the national firearms act of 1934, do the math, and get back to me. beevul Oct 2015 #18

no EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #72

I hate to point out the obvious... beevul Oct 2015 #83

Well... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #86

You recognize some of the obvious politics, branford Oct 2015 #95

of course not EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #108

You've proven my point. branford Oct 2015 #118

as you say EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #121

Do you wonder why gun rights are expanding? branford Oct 2015 #139

there's the catch 22 EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #142

Define "and it wil be painful" sarisataka Oct 2015 #146

except your predictions on demographic shifts are assumptions gejohnston Oct 2015 #147

So, at least we've implicitly established that you really have no intention branford Oct 2015 #148

except EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #149

except not gejohnston Oct 2015 #152

Excuse me? branford Oct 2015 #153

So your examples are EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #154

Ah, nothing is as heart warming as a child's simple faith. DonP Oct 2015 #155

Another echo discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #126

Interesting. beevul Oct 2015 #97

10K kids injured and 3000 dead by guns a year EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #123

Yeah, like I said. Brady sycophant. beevul Oct 2015 #134

you need to read more carefully EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #143

but they are not children gejohnston Oct 2015 #144

The operative word, I believe, was 'children'. beevul Oct 2015 #145

riiiiight EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #150

So far, you're following the typical brady bunch script. beevul Oct 2015 #151

Most Americans don't like bartering with our rights yeoman6987 Oct 2015 #26

How about life liberty and the persuit of happyness are those rights? upaloopa Oct 2015 #129

All these good things are mentioned nowhere in the Constitution friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #140

there is a meme for that gejohnston Oct 2015 #17

the thing is EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #21

no they haven't gejohnston Oct 2015 #24

Excellent post..n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #30

sigh EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #44

Crickets..... safeinOhio Oct 2015 #48

Crickets? No. gejohnston Oct 2015 #90

Your WaPo articles speaks to gun violence, not violence as a whole as GE was speaking. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #54

Ive never said anything about house to house searches. safeinOhio Oct 2015 #92

Coincidentally, my post was not in response to any of your posts. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #96

the memes were a valid point gejohnston Oct 2015 #89

Would registration of handguns safeinOhio Oct 2015 #5

I suppose registration might be okay but... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #6

good to see you discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #8

Welcome. I will respond when I have time to consider your questions thoroughly... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #19

ha! EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #22

Maybe and no. ileus Oct 2015 #25

I would restrict concealed carry permits to trained professionals with a demonstrated need. Maedhros Oct 2015 #27

Like it does in Vermont or Maine? n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #28

I'm not familiar with those states' concealed weapon laws. Maedhros Oct 2015 #31

In Maine and Vermont... Kang Colby Oct 2015 #32

Correlation is not causation. Maedhros Oct 2015 #33

I wasn't suggesting that it was. I was simply pointing out that a carrying populace does not Kang Colby Oct 2015 #34

It's not a phobia - it's a reasonable preference. Maedhros Oct 2015 #37

welll.... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #41

No, it isn't, is it. Straw Man Oct 2015 #40

no need for utopia EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #42

Oh, the irony ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #45

Compare it however you want EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #49

Why not -- it works for you. Straw Man Oct 2015 #55

birds like warm weather jimmy the one Oct 2015 #52

Jimmy painfully elaborates the obvious. Straw Man Oct 2015 #58

is he or isn't he? jimmy the one Oct 2015 #73

Once more, Jimmy. Straw Man Oct 2015 #76

hypothesis defined for ray bolger's buddy jimmy the one Oct 2015 #78

Double duh. Straw Man Oct 2015 #79

I think, therefore I believe jimmy the one Oct 2015 #81

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #84

think again, my irrefutable rebuttal jimmy the one Oct 2015 #124

Stop letting dictionaries do your thinking for you. Straw Man Oct 2015 #137

arguing the absurd again he is jimmy the one Oct 2015 #156

So ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #157

absurdum ad infinitum jimmy the one Oct 2015 #158

Belief. Straw Man Oct 2015 #159

"Too bad no one but the two of us is reading it." Incorrect, unfortunately for the Stuart heir friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #160

A favor, if you would... sarisataka Oct 2015 #85

Why do controllers only care about "gun violence"? Kang Colby Oct 2015 #29

How do you figure EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #38

Yes. And ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #46

There are many ingredients. deathrind Oct 2015 #36

Very true EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #39

I currently "live with" tens of thousands of alcohol-related deaths a year... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #80

in fact EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #88

This kind of data we have all heard and argued many times... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #91

there is no evidence to support gejohnston Oct 2015 #93

3 polls say gun ownership rates have fallen since '93 jimmy the one Oct 2015 #125

actually, only GSS actually says that gejohnston Oct 2015 #128

abracadabra, and he thinks he wins jimmy the one Oct 2015 #136

Allow me to reframe your question: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #98

Their restrictions were not common sense gejohnston Oct 2015 #99

Define "common sense" in a way that does not posit certain guillaumeb Oct 2015 #100

fact is, there have been mass shootings, as my link documented gejohnston Oct 2015 #101

I should have said that there are no mass killings in other countries like in the US. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #104

entirely different cultures gejohnston Oct 2015 #106

I cannot speak for Australians, but in my view, the difference guillaumeb Oct 2015 #107

the firearms death includes suicides gejohnston Oct 2015 #110

Can we agree to disagree without being disagreeable? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #112

This message was self-deleted by its author gejohnston Oct 2015 #113

well EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #109

Agreed. Killing will continue no matter the weapon employed. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #114

21K are suicides gejohnston Oct 2015 #115

FBI says that 20k are suicide. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #116

Suicide in general gejohnston Oct 2015 #117

When I do suicide assessments gwheezie Oct 2015 #132

Gun control will not do much to save lives, that being said... Kalidurga Oct 2015 #102

I agree with some of what you are talking about gejohnston Oct 2015 #103

I don't know about the percent of stolen guns either. Kalidurga Oct 2015 #105

The only questions that I'm interested in addressing are: pablo_marmol Oct 2015 #119

and what would you propose EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #120

they don't increase gejohnston Oct 2015 #122

I would propose that a good start would be for folks like you pablo_marmol Oct 2015 #138

Let's see two threads today about people getting shot by reckless concealed carry upaloopa Oct 2015 #127

define vigilante shooter gejohnston Oct 2015 #130

you know what I mean upaloopa Oct 2015 #133

Not really, as you've been rather vague friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #141