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In reply to the discussion: The Origins of "Grok." [View all]

muriel_volestrangler

(104,190 posts)
3. Heinlein became libertarian, even if he still had some compassion. The Wikipedia article has a section
Fri Jul 18, 2025, 02:35 PM
Jul 18

which pretty much allows anyone to apply any meaning to 'grok' as long as it includes "completely understand":

Descriptions in Stranger in a Strange Land

Critic David E. Wright Sr. points out that in the 1991 "uncut" edition of Stranger, the word grok "was used first without any explicit definition on page 22" and continued to be used without being explicitly defined until page 253 (emphasis in original).[3] He notes that this first intensional definition is simply "to drink", but that this is only a metaphor "much as English 'I see' often means the same as 'I understand'".[3] Critics have bridged this absence of explicit definition by citing passages from Stranger that illustrate the term. A selection of these passages follows:

Grok means "to understand", of course, but Dr. Mahmoud, who might be termed the leading Terran expert on Martians, explains that it also means, "to drink" and "a hundred other English words, words which we think of as antithetical concepts. 'Grok' means all of these. It means 'fear', it means 'love', it means 'hate' — proper hate, for by the Martian 'map' you cannot hate anything unless you grok it, understand it so thoroughly that you merge with it and it merges with you — then you can hate it. By hating yourself. But this implies that you love it, too, and cherish it and would not have it otherwise. Then you can hate — and (I think) Martian hate is an emotion so black that the nearest human equivalent could only be called mild distaste.[4]

Grok means "identically equal". The human cliché "This hurts me worse than it does you" has a distinctly Martian flavor. The Martian seems to know instinctively what we learned painfully from modern physics, that observer acts with observed through the process of observation. Grok means to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed — to merge, blend, intermarry, lose identity in group experience. It means almost everything that we mean by religion, philosophy, and science and it means as little to us as color does to a blind man.[4][5]

The Martian Race had encountered the people of the fifth planet, grokked them completely, and had taken action; asteroid ruins were all that remained, save that the Martians continued to praise and cherish the people they had destroyed.[4]

All that groks is God.[6]

Heinlein's politics:

In truth, Heinlein’s shift to the right took place over a decade, from 1948 to 1957. In the early 1950s, the Heinleins travelled around the world. The writer was already a Malthusian and a eugenicist, but the trip greatly exacerbated his demographic despair and xenophobia. “The real problem of the Far East is not that so many of them are communists, but simply that there are so many of them,” he wrote in a 1954 travel book (posthumously published in 1992). Even space travel, Heinlein concluded, wouldn’t be able to open enough room to get rid of “them.” Heinlein treated overpopulation as a personal affront.

Heinlein had caught a bad case of the Cold War jitters in the late 1940s. He accused liberal Democratic friends, notably the director Fritz Lang, of being Stalinist stooges. With Heinlein's great talent for extrapolation, every East-West standoff seemed like the end of the world. “I do not think we have better than an even chance of living, as a nation, through the next five years,” he wrote an editor in 1957. The USSR's Sputnik launch in 1957 and Eisenhower’s moves toward a nuclear test ban the following year both unhinged Heinlein, who called Ike a “slimy faker.” By 1961 Heinlein concluded that even though it was a “fascist organization,” the John Birch Society was preferable to liberals and moderate conservatives.

The turning point came in 1957. After that year, Heinlein's books were no longer progressive explorations of the future but hectoring diatribes lamenting the decadence of modernity. A recurring character in these books—variously named Hugh Farnham, Jubal Harshaw or Lazarus Long—is a crusty older man who's a wellspring of wisdom. “Daddy, you have an annoying habit of being right,” runs an actual bit of dialogue from Farnham’s Freehold (1964). In the worst of Heinlein's later books, daddy not only knows best, he often knows everything.

Only on the issue of sex did Heinlein remain faithful to the radicalism of his youth, with some of his late books portraying a future where bisexuality is the norm. Yet even on sex, late-period Heinlein is an untrustworthy guide. Many readers have been disturbed by the pro-incest arguments found in such books as Farnham’s Freehold, Time Enough For Love (1973), and To Sail Beyond the Sunset (1987). Perhaps the best that can be said on Heinlein’s behalf is that incest served as an objective correlative to his libertarianism and solipsism. What better way of being an independent free agent than by sleeping with your closest kin

https://newrepublic.com/article/118048/william-pattersons-robert-heinlein-biography-hagiography

Recommendations

5 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

The Origins of "Grok." [View all] MineralMan Jul 18 OP
Ok, I got ForgedCrank Jul 18 #1
I did not enjoy that story, had to slog through it. Swede Jul 18 #2
A lot of his stuff was complicated and erratic. MineralMan Jul 18 #6
In my opinion, he wrote two stories in his career. nilram Jul 18 #23
I'd guess it was assigned reading. I was at the U in the mid 60s. A lot of profs thought Heinlein erronis Jul 18 #28
That's Vonnegut Orrex Jul 18 #37
Of course. Glad you noticed. erronis Jul 18 #39
I figured you knew, but I couldn't resist geeking out Orrex Jul 18 #51
Heinlein became libertarian, even if he still had some compassion. The Wikipedia article has a section muriel_volestrangler Jul 18 #3
I didn't get into Heinlein's personality or politics at all. MineralMan Jul 18 #4
Thanks for the link. The writer is pretty balanced but is harsh on Heinlein's flaws, as he should be. Bernardo de La Paz Jul 18 #9
I recommend this thread :) Bernardo de La Paz Jul 18 #5
everyone should read Stranger in a Strange Land at least once, IMHO eShirl Jul 18 #7
Thumbnail avatars aside genxlib Jul 18 #10
I was an avid reader of "hard" science fiction in the 50s and 60s. MineralMan Jul 18 #12
What was so wonderful about Asimov is that he wrote a wide variety of topics both in fiction and nonfiction. HeartsCanHope Jul 18 #20
Yes. He was one of the most prolific non-fiction writers ever. MineralMan Jul 18 #21
My background is in library science. Asimov was able to reach his readers at their level. HeartsCanHope Jul 18 #26
I think what you're describing is the difference between science fiction, and science fantasy. erronis Jul 18 #31
I think I'd describe science fiction as Emrys Jul 18 #54
I like your viewpoint. And as you said, it depends on where we are in our intellectual development. erronis Jul 18 #61
Pure fantasy writing has never been a major interest of mine Emrys Jul 18 #64
The "Golden Age of Science-Fiction"... GJGCA Jul 18 #35
That's usually attributed to H.L. Gold. highplainsdem Jul 18 #62
despite the book disappearing from my library slightlv Jul 18 #58
I hated that book genxlib Jul 18 #8
An acquired taste, I guess. MineralMan Jul 18 #13
I rate it in the middle part of his works, above average. But he has lots better. Bernardo de La Paz Jul 18 #14
That sounds about right. I had scifi writers I liked a lot better than Heinlein. MineralMan Jul 18 #22
I think Heinlein is the most American of all SF writers and the best story teller too. Others are more lyrical Bernardo de La Paz Jul 18 #30
Not a surprise that you would think so professor FBaggins Jul 18 #40
Thank you. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 18 #42
...and, Grok is powered by the largest AI supercomputer in the world, Colossus. LudwigPastorius Jul 18 #11
Yes, indeed. MineralMan Jul 18 #15
Have they said which Colossus they named it after? muriel_volestrangler Jul 18 #34
There were buttons that said "I grok Spock" back in the day Maeve Jul 18 #16
Yes, I remember that. The word sort of dropped out of use, though, MineralMan Jul 18 #17
For a libertarian Musk has certainly sucked up a lot of taxpayer dollars. hunter Jul 18 #47
I and my friend used to frequently use the term "grok". forgotmylogin Jul 18 #18
Musk has a childish (in good and bad senses) fascination with the Red Planet Bernardo de La Paz Jul 18 #19
Your use of the word "gripping" made me think of MineralMan Jul 18 #25
Pournelle has politics many here do not like. He wrote good hard science SF but has PhD in Political Science. . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jul 18 #32
I'm not surprised. MineralMan Jul 18 #38
Jerry didn't handle political arguments well. highplainsdem Jul 18 #45
No. I never talked politics with him. MineralMan Jul 18 #52
My previous post was a statement, not a question. highplainsdem Jul 18 #53
A lot of people saw him as a laughing stock. MineralMan Jul 18 #55
He was very intelligent and could be very nice and helpful. But he tended to be wrong on politics, highplainsdem Jul 18 #57
Sounds like you knew him better MineralMan Jul 18 #63
Neither eLoon nor tRump have the ability to Grok anything. flashman13 Jul 18 #24
"Uncensored version"? Do tell -- I read the first paperback as a teenager mid-60s. What's the history? Hekate Jul 18 #59
There are some Heinlein books and stories that he toned down for publication. rsdsharp Jul 18 #66
Ahh. Thank you. Hekate Jul 18 #69
You mean "MechaHitler?" Karasu Jul 18 #27
I've used "grok" in its original sense for decades. Ocelot II Jul 18 #29
I was an avid Sci-fi reader in my twenties Mossfern Jul 18 #33
Huge Heinlein fan. Although his political leanings were obvious in his fiction early on The Moon is a Harsh Mistress etc Noodleboy13 Jul 18 #36
The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress was 1966; pretty much the midpoint of his career. rsdsharp Jul 18 #68
My exposure to Heinlein is all through XMas gifts from my uncle. Who was head of polisci at creighton in omaha. Noodleboy13 Jul 18 #70
Heinlein's juvenile novels were always timed for the Christmas trade. rsdsharp Jul 18 #71
But the movie was freaking awesome!!!!! Noodleboy13 Jul 19 #72
I knew that Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jul 18 #41
Well then, thank you for teaching me today irisblue Jul 18 #43
Heinlein's political views tended to track those of his wives. rsdsharp Jul 18 #44
I have a relative who's changed political views based on her husbands' views. Always struck me as highplainsdem Jul 18 #48
Musk has referenced other SF writers as well, and IMO never really understood them. highplainsdem Jul 18 #46
It was Heinlein's second sexual adolescence Warpy Jul 18 #49
Heinlein... Godot51 Jul 18 #50
I'm currently reading Mossfern Jul 18 #65
I knew it s Linux command Earl_from_PA Jul 18 #56
Thank you! GAJMac Jul 18 #60
I loved Stranger in a Strange Land LetMyPeopleVote Jul 18 #67
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