Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Judi Lynn

(163,317 posts)
Sun Apr 20, 2025, 07:37 AM Sunday

Scientists Are Mapping the Bizarre, Chaotic Spacetime Inside Black Holes

Apr 20, 2025 7:00 AM

https://media.wired.com/clips/6800ef01b5239049ba9ebf58/720p/pass/MixmasterSingularities_DaveWhyte_Lede.mp4

By understanding the churning region near singularities, physicists hope they might be able to reconcile gravity and quantum mechanics.

The original version of this story appeared in Quanta Magazine.

At the beginning of time and the center of every black hole lies a point of infinite density called a singularity. To explore these enigmas, we take what we know about space, time, gravity, and quantum mechanics and apply it to a place where all of those things simply break down. There is, perhaps, nothing in the universe that challenges the imagination more. Physicists still believe that if they can come up with a coherent explanation for what actually happens in and around singularities, something revelatory will emerge, perhaps a new understanding of what space and time are made of.

In the late 1960s, some physicists speculated that singularities might be surrounded by a region of churning chaos, where space and time haphazardly grow and shrink. Charles Misner of the University of Maryland called it a “Mixmaster universe,” after what was then a popular line of kitchen appliances. If an astronaut were to fall into a black hole, “one can imagine it mixing up the astronaut’s body parts in the way that a mixmaster or eggbeater mixes up the yolk and white of an egg,” Kip Thorne, a Nobel Prize–winning physicist, later wrote.

Einstein’s general theory of relativity, which is used to describe the gravity of black holes, uses a single field equation to explain how space curves and matter moves. But that equation uses a mathematical shorthand called a tensor to hide 16 distinct, intertwined equations. Several scientists, including Misner, had devised useful simplifying assumptions to let them explore scenarios like the Mixmaster universe.

Without those assumptions, Einstein’s equation couldn’t be solved analytically, and even with them it was too complicated for the numerical simulations of the time. Like the appliance they were named after, these ideas fell out of style. These “dynamics are supposed to be a very general phenomenon in gravity,” said Gerben Oling, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Edinburgh. “But it’s something that fell off the map.”

More:
https://www.wired.com/story/new-maps-of-the-bizarre-chaotic-space-time-inside-black-holes/

3 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Scientists Are Mapping the Bizarre, Chaotic Spacetime Inside Black Holes (Original Post) Judi Lynn Sunday OP
Black holes do NOT have a point of infinite density at their center VMA131Marine Sunday #1
Perhaps we should look at the past few decades... GreenWave Sunday #2
Thank you! CloudWatcher Sunday #3

VMA131Marine

(4,957 posts)
1. Black holes do NOT have a point of infinite density at their center
Sun Apr 20, 2025, 09:14 AM
Sunday

And we know that because it’s forbidden by quantum mechanics. General Relativity predicts a point of infinite density but that just means it’s not a valid theory near the center of a black hole and we need a new theory that combines Relativity with Quantum Field Theory to describe what actually happens there.

GreenWave

(11,084 posts)
2. Perhaps we should look at the past few decades...
Sun Apr 20, 2025, 11:03 AM
Sunday

A few decades ago: Nothing escapes a black hole, not even light...

Not so long ago: Light which escapes the black hole... Radiation which escapes the black hole... Black holes burp up matter...

The Big Problem is giving god-like powers to math and then believing them.

Just a thought here. Try thinking beyond the third dimension.

On edit: Meant to reply to OP. Sorry about that! and subsequently

CloudWatcher

(1,994 posts)
3. Thank you!
Sun Apr 20, 2025, 05:00 PM
Sunday

I get so tired of the black hole news articles that start with "General Relativity predicts a point of infinite density" and forget to finish sentence: "but we know that General Relativity is incomplete and there is of course no such thing as an infinitely dense point there."

I'm looking forward to a complete theory of everything if only so I can stop getting angry at such articles as this one

Latest Discussions»Culture Forums»Science»Scientists Are Mapping th...