Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

The Great Open Dance

(96 posts)
Sun Apr 6, 2025, 03:27 PM Apr 6

God has united body and soul for human flourishing

We are ensouled bodies and embodied souls.

The body does not compete with the soul; it unites with the soul to produce embodied, soulful experience. Embodied experience feeds the soul, while the soul informs embodied experience. Meaning arises from this union: embodiment allows loving relationship, materiality allows intense sensation, and decisions within time produce moral consequence. Soul and body are as inseparable for vitality as light and heat are for fire.

Despite the early church’s rejection of Marcion, who preferred spirit over matter and soul over body, early Christianity sometimes wavered in its commitment to embodiment as blessed. The church arose within the context of Greek philosophy and Jewish asceticism that sometimes devalued material existence, and the church sometimes absorbed these influences. For example, in the fourth century Athanasius wrote an influential biography of Anthony of Egypt, considered the father of Christian monasticism. According to Athanasius, Anthony “used to eat and sleep, and go about all other bodily necessities with shame when he thought of the spiritual faculties of the soul. . . . It behooves a man to give all his time to his soul rather than his body.”

In the Philokalia, an anthology of early Christian monastic writings, St. Neilos the Ascetic marvels at Moses’s courage: “These holy men achieved such things because they had resolved to live for the soul alone, turning away from the body and its wants.” In the centuries that followed, flagellants punished their bodies, gnostics escaped their bodies, and women were seen as excessively embodied.

Given the above, the term soul has a problematic history, and some theologians have rejected the concept as inevitably anti-body. Yet soulless bodies may prove as unsatisfactory as disembodied souls, especially as we develop concerns about the “soulless” culture in which we live. The Oxford English Dictionary defines soulless as heartless, cold, and mechanical, lacking in warmth and feeling. By way of consequence, soulless culture is passionless, dull, and uninteresting, and a soulless place lacks character, uniqueness, and distinction. By way of extension, a soulless economy reduces human persons to units of production and consumption. Its marketers study our depths to control us, while advertisers manipulate our insecurities, politicians target our identity group, and elementary school students are defined by their test scores. Meanwhile, imperial accountancy translates everything and everyone into a dollar value. Threatened by an ever-encroaching thingness, a universe of hollow surfaces, we yearn for the abundance of life that surely exists somewhere, but certainly not here.

The body alone is ill suited to resist its own objectification. Indeed, separated from any inherent value or meaning, it becomes a vulnerability. Girls and boys are shown computer-altered images of “ideal” types and made to feel insecure. Anxious adults compete in the placement of their bodies, struggling to be seen at the right restaurant on the right vacation with the right people. After this calculated onslaught, we may doubt if we are in the right body.

Cunningly, these bodily insecurities are then offered the topical anesthetic of consumption. Clothes, protein powders, makeup, cars, jewelry, liquor, and “exclusive memberships” all promise to free us from our externally inculcated self-loathing. By design, these anaesthetics offer only a brief numbness after which the pain of insecurity will arise again—and the need for another anesthetic. So continues the cycle of anxiety-driven consumption upon which our economy is based, much of which is founded on our doubts about our own appearance and worth.

Powers and principalities want culture to be soulless, not soulful.

We do not experience this system as disembodied. We experience it as soulless. In this modern day context, we yearn for soulful culture. The Oxford English Dictionary defines soulful as “full of soul or feeling; of a highly emotional, spiritual, or aesthetic nature; expressing or evoking deep emotion. “Soulful” can be used as a noun: “As much as a soul can hold or contain,” as in “she got her soulful of tenderness from the community.”

In these examples, “soul” becomes a synonym for kindness, warmth, and depth, a cipher for our most human sentiments. We sense that our authentic self is at best neglected, at worst endangered, by our soulless culture.

So existentially useful is the concept of soul that the most prominent atheist in the Western tradition, Friedrich Nietzsche, utilized it extensively, even as he attempted to reconstruct a culture in which God had died. Fearing an encroaching descent into triviality, Nietzsche elevated the soul to remind his readers of their most noble aspirations and prevent a descent into the Last Man:

The soul that has the longest ladder and reaches down deepest—the most comprehensive soul, which can run and stray and roam farthest within itself; the most necessary soul that plunges joyously into chance; the soul that, having being, dives into becoming; the soul that has, but wants to want and will; the soul that flees itself and catches up with itself in the widest circles; the wisest soul that folly exhorts most sweetly; the soul that loves itself most, in which all things have their sweep and countersweep and ebb and flood. . . . But that is the concept of Dionysus himself. (Ecce Homo, 306)


According to Nietzsche, we need the soul to create soulful life in a soulless culture. Yet he insists that the soul must fulfill the body, not compete with it.

The concept of the soul has also been criticized due to its association with reward and punishment. In individualist religion, the soul bears the record of our deeds, like a secret police file. Based on this record, God judges the individual soul, sending it to either heaven or hell. But in this account the soul has no inherent relationality. Its function is exclusively eschatological—bearing our eternal destiny. The threat of punishment polices individuals, but does not indicate our basic call to community. For this reason, such legalistic concepts of the soul are inadequate to persons made in the image of the Trinitarian God.

We need a lifegiving, relational concept of the soul.

How could we reconceptualize the soul as interdependent rather than isolated? Any concept of the soul that is faithful to the Trinity must invite us to live for one another. We can recall our previous definition of God as “an infinite sphere whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.” Applying this geometric concept to humankind, we can define the soul as a point with an infinite number of radii, of infinite length, lacking any circumference. By their very nature, our souls radiate outward and seek connection, and connection grants us expansiveness.

Euclid, the founder of geometry, initiated this relational way of conceptualizing the universe. The most basic unit in his philosophy is the point. Euclid defines a point as that which has no parts or magnitude, thus has no existence in and of itself. Instead, points are granted existence by the pattern of relations in which they dwell, combining with other points to form a line, plane, cube, sphere, etc. By itself, the point is an abstraction. United to others, it constitutes reality.

The soul is nothing in itself. Only through its relationship to other souls does the soul come into being, connected and open. It becomes everything, even while retaining its own location, perspective, and identity. The soul can then offer its uniqueness to all other souls, thereby granting them their own uniqueness, a gift that they have already reciprocated. In this conception, the soul becomes a boundless horizon that we wall off only to our own detriment. (adapted from Jon Paul Sydnor, The Great Open Dance: A Progressive Christian Theology, pages 99-102)

For further reading, please see:

Athanasius. “Life of St. Anthony.” Translated by H. Ellershaw. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, 2nd ser., 4. Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature, 1892. Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm.

Copenhaver, Brian T., ed. The Greek “Corpus Hermeticum” and the Latin “Asclepius” in a New English Translation. Attributed to Hermes Trismegistus. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995.

Nietzsche, Friedrich. Ecce Homo. Translated by Walter Kaufmann. New York: Vintage, 1989.
Nikodimos of the Holy Mountain, St., and St. Markarios of Corinth, compilers. The Philokalia: The Complete Text. Edited and translated by G. E. H. Palmer et al. 5 vols. New York: Faber and Faber, 1979–2023.
3 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

Karadeniz

(24,251 posts)
1. This one is difficult! I can only contribute based upon my own personal experience and what I've deduced from NDE's and
Sun Apr 6, 2025, 06:22 PM
Apr 6

accounts of reincarnation cases. In my experience, I awakened to find Self consisted of two things: soul and mind. No body, no body shape, no human. There were lots of other souls there with lots of variations in size, frequency, color. Those qualities reflected the extent to which each soul had developed its divine nature and how close we could approach the Source, to which we wanted to return, and the Radiance cascading from it and which increased our above qualities. The Mind was detachable; I detached mine in order to identify my Self as my Soul. During the experience, I detached it to look around and see exactly what this place was like. That is how I learned the World of the Source, that the Source never leaves its World and that Souls must make it there themselves. This is part of the meaning behind the parable of the Prodigal Son. It's true what NDErs and out of body experiencers attest: the Mind doesn't need the human's eyes and ears to see and hear! From that, I've sort of deduced that the Mind accumulates brain energy and soul energy, a product of both, but not part of either. This is why Jesus can say "Don't hide your light under a basket." There's a place where they coexist and which motivates our understanding and character, but Mind wasn't an organic part of my Soul. Mind can help the Soul develop its divine nature...if its Soul energy is enough to influence the brain's survival instinct and ego. Reincarnation reports show that the "next in line" remembers its previous human existence, so both Soul and Mind must travel together to the new life.

2. That is mind-blowing
Mon Apr 7, 2025, 08:39 AM
Apr 7

I'm curious, how did your soul relate to other souls? If you were energy, and they were energy, then were all of you together synergy? I've never had an NDE--what were the long term emotional effects of yours? Thank you, I teach a course on science and religion, and one thing we discuss is matter, spirit, brain, mind, consciousness, etc.

Karadeniz

(24,251 posts)
3. Im so jealous! I wish I had a class to get people thinking deep thoughts! If I did, I would start the class by having
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 01:26 PM
Apr 8

everyone read Your Eternal Self. It's a compilation of most of the research that's been done on the powers of Mind over brain. There's so much that could be added. I regularly check out NDE videos and there are a few that are compilations of the thousands of NDE experiences that suggest a pattern. Then there are the Psychic Detectives videos...OMG! What they can do takes some of the evidence in Your Eternal Self to amazing lengths, as they often also predict the future. These are backed up by the police officers with whom they worked. I was listening to a video last night and couldn't make out the name of the scientist referred to precisely...Herman (?) Lazlo/Laslo. Anyway, he's twice been nominated for a Nobel prize, I think for his work in quantum physics leading to a defense of the Akashic records. The interviewee was on Next Level Soul, another website I regularly check out for its latest videos.

To answer your specific questions. As my Soul was traveling towards the Source, I passed over and above hundreds of souls and I couldn't have cared less about them! My Mind definitely retained some human greediness to it! All I could think about was getting closer to the Soul, in part because I was convinced that this was the journey I wouldn't have to come back from. I just knew I'd be joining the Source this time and that was all I wanted. The law of attraction isn't typically discussed much, but it's so evident when physicality is subtracted from the picture. In NDE's the subjects see the shining energy figure of what they call Jesus, although the figure itself rarely identifies itself. Once it replied that it had had many names and Jesus would do. Most want to actually merge with this energy, as they do if they encounter an even greater source of energy they identify as God. There's an NDE by a Jewish girl who meets "Jesus" and "God" and she climbs onto the "lap" of the God energy...the Jesus figure literally had to forcibly remove her from the place to get her to go back to her body...NDErs never want to return to their earthly life. So, even on that level of spirit reality, the attraction to spirit energy and the desire to literally merge with it is strong.

In fact, so greedy was I that in my progress I encountered souls that were jam packed together the closer I got to the Radiance. Two of them were in my way and I literally tried to "manhandle" them, pushing myself between them for all I could. Unfortunately for me, once I was able to at least wedge myself between these obstacles, my expectations of joining the Source were dashed to the ground as I understood that I could proceed no further. By this time, I was well into the field receiving Radiance, so I made the best of my disappointment and decided I'd be happy where I was...and who wouldn't? The Radiance is like having a warm massage on every molecule of your body. Exhilarating. Relaxing. The words most commonly used to describe this energy penetrating the soul are Bliss and Ecstasy. My Soul would move around in place to make sure every inch of it would get Radiance. So self-centered!!!

I did have one redeeming event, so I did learn something from my time in what I knew as the World of the Source. Much to my sorrow, I got the message that I had to leave. Rats! However, one doesn't argue with the Source, so I retraced my steps the way I had come in. My journey away took much more time than my hustle in! At the end of all the rows of souls that were waiting beyond the Radiance field, I stopped before moving through the Void where my journey had begun. From that vantage point, I looked around and saw that there were actually some few souls way into the void. They were tiny, sluggish, of no particular color, dim. I called them anemic. They were stuck there, I could tell. They had no way to experience the Radiance at their distance, so they would never feel the awesome Goodness of the Source's nature. Experiencing the Radiance is really the best way to understand our Soul nature. So, for the first and only time I deviated from my apparently charted course and chose to go to those souls. I said, "I won't need this where I'm going," "this" referring to the Radiance my Soul had acquired. I didn't have a clear idea of "where I'm going," but into the void was all I needed to know. I floated over to the first pitiful excuse for a Soul I came to, moved right up to it, touching it and transfused some of my Radiance into it. I realized that this was the only way such a soul would learn anything! In its current state, it couldn't advance towards the Source. Its only way of experiencing the nature of the Source was if we Souls coming and going gave it the experience. I sort of measured out a transfusion amount so I could help several of these poor things. I had maybe enough Radiance to help three of them. When I realized my supply was out, if I made my way out through the void, I don't remember it. All I know is that I woke up from my nap madder and more depressed than I'd ever been. I couldn't bring myself to face this world. Most of my hostility was focused on Gravity. I have never felt so heavy in my life. I couldn't move. I couldn't believe that I was going to have to walk, connect my body with the ground in order to get around. The thought occurred to me that if I cut off my legs...and I was a classical ballerina...I wouldn't have to use them for locomotion that tied me to earth. I lay in bed for quite awhile before finally deciding I was stuck here so I'd better get used to it. My first few steps were like any movie you've seen with a character taking his first few steps after some sort of paralysis.

I didn't tell anyone about the experience because I didn't understand. At first, I tried to translate it into terms I was familiar with, God, Holy Spirit, Heaven. There was no Christ. However, the experience was so real on its own terms that I didn't really feel comfortable with terms that had never really had a strong meaning to me, anyway. Also, I had no idea why I had had this experience. I knew I wasn't anything special, so I assumed it was a mistake, a crack in the vast scheme of things that I had accidentally slipped through. I toyed with the notion that maybe I was special, since I'd had a good experience of "heaven." That didn't last long, since I had after all been kicked out, given the old heave ho, expelled, etc. And I knew that the reason I had to leave was that my Soul just flat wasn't good enough. So much for being special!

I have to go. I'll finish your questions...how did this affect my life...when I get back.

Latest Discussions»Alliance Forums»Christian Liberals & Progressive People of Faith»God has united body and s...