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NNadir

(36,954 posts)
Sat Nov 8, 2025, 02:27 AM Nov 8

History being made at a urinal.

Because of the times we're in, I am reading a long monograph on the trial of a former Head of State for treason.

It's history for hope.

France on Trial The Case of Marshal Pétain by Julian Jackson

I'm reading it in bite sized portions (a few pages in bed before going to sleep) and have been at it for some time.

It's an interesting piece of history from which I've learned a lot about a topic in which I've had only superficial familiarity, the French defeat in 1940, the legal basis for signing the armistice - no other country conquered by the Nazis signed one - and the legal basis, shallow as it was and as contrived as it was, for the end of the Third Republic and the installation of Marshal Petain as the Head of State the rump Vichy government. (The legal basis was strong enough to cause the United States to send an ambassador to Vichy France.)

I am also learning that the signing of the armistice was not an inevitable outcome, many members of the French Government that was retreating across France considered evacuating to Algeria - then considered a part of France, a province - without surrendering, continuing the war from abroad. (This is what Churchill proposed for Britain in his famous "Fight on the Beaches" speech should Britain be invaded and defeated.)

we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.


I am also learning about the creation of the Fourth Republic, and the French criminal justice system of the time with large partisan juries, the role of De Gaulle - his mentor/mentee relationship with Petain before the war - who despite the armistice did choose to fight on.

Anyway, it's an interesting work, well written and very detailed. I came across an amusing passage, because one seldom sees in histories, the fact that the participants in important histories are never actually described as having the basic character of humanity, the need to pee and crap.

The book describes the interaction with one of the "Resistance jurors," Jacques Lecompte-Beniot, who during a break in the trial ran into De Gaulle and wanted to discuss the writing of the Constitution of what would become the Fourth Republic, which would not last as long as the Third or Fifth Republics. (The Algeria crisis in 1958 resulted in the Fifth Republic which functions to this day.)

De Gaulle, however, needed to pee as Lecompte-Beniot sought to pigeon hole him.

He took me by the arm and said: 'Don't you need to take a leak? I'm bursting,' and so it was that my chat with de Gaulle took place in the urinals, which was uncomfortable from an intellectual standpint. At the best of times he is like ice, and standing there with him in front of the marbe is even more refrigerating.


OK, I'm amused.

Lecompte-Beniot was concerned that the trial was degenerating into a kangaroo court, a show trial, and he wanted to be "fair."

Another interesting thing about the trial, to which I previous referred in this space, was that Petain was very old at the time - he was the oldest Head of State in French history, and remains so to this day - pushing 90.

He was found guilty and sentenced to death, a sentence which de Gaulle commuted to life in prison.

Anyway. Historical figures did have to pee sometimes. We're kind of aware of that in the case of the orange pedophile in the White House, a head of state who is a traitor taking a wrecking ball to the Constitution, possibly bringing to an end the long lived "First Republic" of the United States (or Second Republic if one considers the Articles of Confederation), given that much has been made of the stench of his diapers.

Have a nice weekend.
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rubbersole

(10,899 posts)
1. "the stench of his diapers"...
Sat Nov 8, 2025, 06:04 AM
Nov 8

...is what I first thought caused the gentleman to faint in the Oval Office the other day. That, or Dr Oz telling the world that EVERY citizen of the United States is going to lose over 300lbs in one year because of the new cheap price for the 'fat drug'. Oz math.

eppur_se_muova

(40,562 posts)
3. I'm currently reading about an earlier chapter in French history -- via a biography of Napoleon Bonaparte.
Tue Nov 11, 2025, 01:14 AM
Nov 11

Having grown up in the US, I learned almost nothing about European history in school. Once we kicked George III out, Europe ceased to exist until WWI (briefly) and then again beginning w/WWII. What little I learned came from independent reading, which was more than a little spotty. This bio, at the beginning, frequently refers to events of the French Revolution, seeming to assume that the reader is already familiar therewith (author Alan Schom was educated in US and England, now lives in France, so a safe assumption at home but not in the American market). It was the French Revolution and the rebuilding of the French military that gave Bonaparte his big chance.

Of course it's tempting to see parallels between "The Little General" and Anus Orange. They share haughtiness, arrogance, headstrongness (headstrength ?), impatience, an expectation of personal loyalty which is never returned, a breathtaking capacity for outrageous, easily discredited lies, and extreme cruelty. (The revolutionaries sent many of their countryman to the guillotine; Bonaparte mowed them down with batteries of cannon.) Both were philanderers (but so was everyone in French leadership, apparently -- Josephine was dating Napoleon every other night, and on the other nights alternating between two other men). Where he differs is that he had more education, more intelligence, more knowledge of strategy and tactics, and more actual accomplishments, often winning against fantastic odds after having risen from financial ruin after his family was forced to flee Corsica. Oh, and let's not forget he regarded Russia as an enemy. So the differences are perhaps more informative than the similarities. Both less than admirable men, in most regards, but able to convince/threaten/brainwash/kidnap others to follow them, often beyond any remotely reasonable expectations. Sadly, not the only such examples in our history. It is sadly necessary to study such men to be better prepared to deal with them.

When I say "less than admirable", I am reflecting the fact that the most impressive quote by NB I have yet come across is the following: "Calm has been completely restored in Cairo ... every night we have another thirty or so heads lopped off." The heads in question were Egyptian, mostly Arab, despite NB claiming to have "rescued" Egypt from Ottoman rule to "free" the populace from oppression. So much for la mission civilisatrice.

NNadir

(36,954 posts)
4. I have only passing familiarity with the details of Napoleon's life and personality. What book are you reading?
Thu Nov 13, 2025, 10:21 PM
Thursday

I feel like I'm way behind on catching up with my reading list; why not make it worse by adding something?

eppur_se_muova

(40,562 posts)
5. Alan Schom's "Napoleon Bonaparte", from 1997. There may very well be a later edition, or a later work by another author.
Fri Nov 14, 2025, 04:06 PM
Friday

Last edited Fri Nov 14, 2025, 04:50 PM - Edit history (1)

Obviously, many authors have written about Napoleon; in this case there was some emphasis by publisher and author that this is a single-volume work. So the alternatives may be daunting.

That probably has a lot to do with the fact that I never read a book specifically about Napoleon.

(Interesting tidbit: Gaspard Monge, Joseph Fourier, and a number of other accomplished scientists were invited by Napoleon on his Egyptian campaign. The Institute they founded survived Napoleon's time, but the building was burned and most of its contents destroyed during the "Arab Spring" revolt.)

I just finished the chapter on Egypt -- the Egyptian campaign was a military disaster, with Napoleon losing (or abandoning!) two-thirds of his initial force of 33,000 men and almost all of his ships. But when he returned to France, the populace was still celebrating the news of his earlier victories and greeted his arrival with wild enthusiasm! As one of his detractors put it, "the devil's spawn has the devil's luck", or as we might call it today, failing upwards.

Knowing the details of the Egyptian campaign (which few did at the time; BP was a truly audacious and prolific liar) might have provided some warning about how that "let's invade Russia next" idea was likely to work out.



ETA: I've since learned Schom's book has been very controversial, especially his conclusion that Napoleon was poisoned. Hard to know whether this is just due to a Napoleon-worshipping "old guard" or genuine shortcomings of his work. He also wrote a controversial report claiming that Switzerland had established concentration camps on its soil during WWII. So .... take with a grain of salt, at least.

NNadir

(36,954 posts)
6. Thanks. My library has it. Once I work from behind this...
Fri Nov 14, 2025, 05:19 PM
Friday

...pile of reading before me. It's a hole in my historical knowledge.

One never knows, I may get to it. Thanks.

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