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Nanjeanne

(6,637 posts)
Fri May 15, 2026, 02:34 PM 17 hrs ago

"Israel: What Went Wrong?": Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov & Haaretz's Gideon Levy Debate Zionism

Last edited Fri May 15, 2026, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

On this Nakba Day, a fascinating discussion this morning on Democracy Now with two prominent Israeli thinkers, historian Omer Bartov and journalist Gideon Levy, about the founding beliefs of Zionism. Bartov, a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University, is the author of the new book Israel: What Went Wrong? Bartov says the early Zionist movement had liberatory intentions, aiming to emancipate the persecuted Jewish minority in Europe and modeling itself after other contemporary ethnonationalist movements. He then argues that while Israel had the opportunity to “become a normal state” and “issue a constitution that would provide equality to all its citizens, would define its borders and create a legal framework” that could also acknowledge and redress the Nakba, it chose another path. Instead of remedying its foundational violence, he says, the modern Israeli state has become increasingly “militaristic, centralized, expansionist, racist and, as we’ve seen since October 2023, genocidal.” Though Bartov does not identify as an anti-Zionist, he says Israel “must discard Zionism, it must put it on the garbage heap of history, and it must redefine itself, going all the way back to 1948.”

Levy, on the other hand, says Zionism has never been reformable, because the movement, from its very beginning, “started wrong, without the belief or the conviction that we can live together.” He contests Bartov’s assertion that early Zionist intentions became warped over the 20th century, and says instead that the violent dispossession of Palestinians is embedded into the premise of the movement. “This very same attitude, this very same policy never stopped ever since ’48,” Levy contends. His latest piece in Haaretz is titled “Zionism Didn’t Go Wrong, It Was Always Built This Way.”

Both Bartov and Levy also respond to the Israeli government’s threat to file a defamation lawsuit against The New York Times for publishing a column by longtime opinion writer Nicholas Kristof about systemic sexual abuse against Palestinian detainees in Israeli prisons. “That has become the policy of the country — to abuse, to humiliate, to rape systematically,” says Bartov. Levy explains Israel’s reaction “is to attack the messenger.”

https://www.democracynow.org/2026/5/15/omer_bartov_gideon_levy_israel_zionism]

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"Israel: What Went Wrong?": Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov & Haaretz's Gideon Levy Debate Zionism (Original Post) Nanjeanne 17 hrs ago OP
i find it interesting mopinko 17 hrs ago #1
This is not the New York Times Bettie 17 hrs ago #2
I find it interesting how that is your response to a discussion by two celebrated Israeli scholars. Nanjeanne 16 hrs ago #3
Oh the discrediting of the NYT has been going on for 2 days now. AloeVera 13 hrs ago #4
They didn't like the article in the NYT about the IDF sniping children, either Rob H. 12 hrs ago #5
I remember that very well actually! AloeVera 11 hrs ago #7
Democracy Now is bold and courageous Beringia 12 hrs ago #6
I think they meant to say Nakba Day in the first sentence. AloeVera 11 hrs ago #8
I mistyped. Nanjeanne 10 hrs ago #9

mopinko

(73,908 posts)
1. i find it interesting
Fri May 15, 2026, 03:20 PM
17 hrs ago

that when it comes to israel, most folks here suddenly trust the nyt.

Bettie

(19,862 posts)
2. This is not the New York Times
Fri May 15, 2026, 03:29 PM
17 hrs ago

it is Democracy Now and is a discussion about Israel between two Jewish men, so....

ETA: They are both respected scholars and while they do speak about the NYT story, it is not the sole subject of the discussion, far from it.

Is your issue that they (both Israeli) have criticism of their government and country?

Nanjeanne

(6,637 posts)
3. I find it interesting how that is your response to a discussion by two celebrated Israeli scholars.
Fri May 15, 2026, 03:34 PM
16 hrs ago

AloeVera

(4,390 posts)
4. Oh the discrediting of the NYT has been going on for 2 days now.
Fri May 15, 2026, 06:50 PM
13 hrs ago

For obvious reasons having to do with the horrific systemic sexual violence in Israeli jails.

If it weren't so disturbing I might find it amusing.

Actually I do find it amusing that the same people applauded the NYT when it published a story about sexual violence on October 7th, some parts of which were later discredited. That story was all over DU. It was the NEW YORK TIMES!!

Suddenly, the NYT is suspect and unreliable.

Shooting the messenger is such a tired old tactic.

Rob H.

(5,912 posts)
5. They didn't like the article in the NYT about the IDF sniping children, either
Fri May 15, 2026, 07:45 PM
12 hrs ago

There was one especially defensive poster who bent over backwards to try to convince everyone that the photos and eyewitness statements were fake. That particular jackass is gone from DU now, though, fortunately.

AloeVera

(4,390 posts)
7. I remember that very well actually!
Fri May 15, 2026, 08:32 PM
11 hrs ago

As much as I try to forget, that level and style of gaslighting and deception was crazy-making. So sorry I engaged and fed the "beast".

AloeVera

(4,390 posts)
8. I think they meant to say Nakba Day in the first sentence.
Fri May 15, 2026, 08:47 PM
11 hrs ago

Wiki: Nakba Day (Arabic: ذكرى النكبة, romanized: Ḏikrā an-Nakba, lit. 'Memory of the Catastrophe') is the day of commemoration for the Nakba, also known as the Palestinian Catastrophe, when the Palestinian homeland and society were destroyed in 1948 and most Palestinians were permanently displaced. It is generally commemorated on 15 May, the day after the Gregorian calendar date of the Israeli Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948.[1]

What a sad day in Palestine in 1948 and again today.

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