r u fucking kidding me?

There is sooooo much wrong with this country. No wonder trump is president.

That's not from me. I claim to know nothing about obstetrics. That's from my healthcare partner. Evolution did a number on us in that there are penalties for walking up right. One of the reasons childbirth was so deadly before modern medicine. The longer it goes on, the higher the risks.

that she doesn't have autonomy over her own body and must be forced into surgery. What about pregnancy makes that acceptable?

And what about trained, professional opinion v. potentially someone's untrained stupidity that threatens both lives? And what part of my mention of "extreme situation" is indecipherable? Personally, I lean very much Darwin. If that's their choice, so be it. Some healthcare professionals may differ. Perhaps you missed that part too. This isn't my opinion. It's the opinion of someone I trust with my own healthcare.

Want to treat your cancer with an untested, incredibly stupid idea like "essential oils" ( common in the woo crowed) and forgo proven treatment? Hey, whatever. Apples and oranges compared to this situation.

The fetus was at term and in distress. Even in fucking azure blue Vermont, where I live, the outcome would have been the same. At term is personhood in damn near every US jurisdiction. Had both died, holy shit!, the caterwauling from the non-medical crowed would have been deafening.

She sited the statistics and a man, not involved in healthcare found for the corporation. I hope they never come for your balls because eventually they will. They force women to have babies, force them to have surgery to deliver them and deny them healthcare to pay for it and deny maternity leave to deal with the loss of income. The line was crossed when government got involved in telling women what to do with their bodies!!! But then who will fight the wars………..

What part of emergency C section do you not understand? The child was VIABLE and AT TERM, thus legally a person in virtually every US jurisdiction. For NOT intervening, the healthcare providers AND the hospital would be liable for malpractice at best. If she were 5 months pregnant, totally different story. She wasn't.

VIABLE and AT TERM. Do you not understand what that means? Uterine rupture and risk of the mother dying? Got that one too?

Personal attack. Alerted on. You're welcome.

OMG, settle down - THIS IS A CHATBOARD.

Clearly she was not in an emergency situation at that momen or they wouldn't have been holding a three hour hearing.

Jebus on a freaking stick!

All of my L&Ds were long. Two were longer than 12 hours. My doctor and I had discussions on how to move it along.

And your MD and specialization in obstetrics is from where? I had a couple ingrown toenails once. Guess that makes me a podiatrist.

Pardon the snippiness, but this is another side of the war on expertise. Sometimes the left is just as bad as the right. Sometimes worse.

Unlike you though, I have been pregnant. I have gone through labor and delivery. I had complicated *labor and deliveries. I was lucky to have one of the best OB-GYNs that ever lived. I didn't have the State of NY and lawyers stepping in to instruct me on how to proceed. This woman wasn't afforded any of that.

*corrected my post because my pregnancies were uneventful, my labor and deliveries were complicated.

If your so goddamn confident in your knowledge go down to your local hospital and tell them you're ready to start practicing OB/GYN. Go ahead. Let us know how that works out. I've had ingrown toe nails. I'm a fucking podiatrist. I'll hang my shingle tomorrow and start practicing

Medical professionals made a call in a difficult delivery and had to go legal to protect themselves AND the woman and child. My practicing partner has seen this shit before, but luckily never had to go so far as get a judge involved. The child was at term and viable, thus a person, thus the medical team had to legally AND ETHICALLY take that into account no matter what the mother wanted. This ain't all about her.

This is the same "I had such and such so I can expertly second guess those TRAINED IN THE FUCKING FIELD" shit as the right. Just a different party affiliation.

but the fact is you know so very little. You have no idea what you are talking about. They didn't give a damn about this woman or her child.

Perhaps your practicing partner is a podiatrist, because your practicing partner sure as shit isn't an OB-GYN.

You seem to think this woman was putting her baby in danger. You seem to think this woman was putting her own life in danger.

She wanted to deliver vaginally if possible. Probably because she knows it's better for the baby and her if she can deliver vaginally, if possible.

They never even gave her a chance.

And if you read through the entire article you would have seen that the judge, after 3 hours of debate WHILE SHE WAS IN LABOR, agreed with the pregnant woman's wishes.

But unfortunately, they can't do that. For them, it's same shit, different day.

What trained professional opinion do you think you are giving?

Neither you, nor your partner are OB-GYNs.

From exactly WHERE does that power come from? Are you omnipresent too??

Yes, there are those close to me who are trained and licensed who know far more than you.

Hostile calling hostile hostile. That's rich. Lets leave it at that and agree to disagree.

More than likely fetal distress. No obstetrics team is going to do what they did at that point in delivery unless there were major problems affecting the life of baby AND mother.

We're not getting all the info from a slanted article with a ideological ax to grind. Like another Propublica article linked here today, it's fear bait for the left meant to get eyeballs on web pages. Same BS the right lops up. Some on this end of the spectrum are just as bad. Tactical, on the ground facts matter. Not ideological spin. Particularly when arm chair MD's start trashing professionals trying to do their goddamn jobs.

Try learning a little bit about how childbirth actually works.

Either delivery method was dangerous! She had calculated that they were safer outside the operating room. Your rudeness is forgiven. I’m pretty sure I have had at least one more C-section than you. It doesn’t make me an expert but I have been through the dangers of the experience and the choices made for my child and myself. I have had a friend and her baby almost die on the table. Alert away. At some point the attacks on women regarding issues centered on women are going to have to stop out here! Bullying and intimidation aren’t going to work because we have nothing to lose.

And I've actually researched this issue, and in a large percentage of cases, the opinions of the medical "experts" are wrong, and baby ends up being perfectly fine when delivered vaginally, even when the doctors swore that it would result in death.

What's much higher risk is women going underground to have their babies outside of hospitals, even under high risk circumstances, and sometimes with no attendant at all, which is what some women are feeling driven to. But I guess we could just institute a pregnancy police state and round them all up and put them in camps. It's all okay if it "saves lives", right?

for either herself or the baby. I can't imagine making a choice that could increase the chance that my baby, who if like hers was in distress, could be damaged or die to prevent a c section. (I had three c sections)

No, you do not attempt natural birth. One, maybe.

Not to mention, there likely were reasons for the earlier ones. My last two were planned cesareans.

Breech baby and I’m Rh-negative, so they couldn’t attempt an external version lest there be a leak to intermingle our blood. Spent my last three months trying to coax him upside down, but he was (and still is) a stubborn old fart.

In the delivery room, my doctors (I thought female OB-GYNs would be better than a man…) freaked out because he was coming so fast, and insisted on the C-section. I was pissed, but I lost all confidence in my docs and knew I wouldn’t have the patience to coax them *and* my baby through it without a fight, so rolled my eyes and let them proceed.

Next baby, I did my own prenatal care. Went to PP for RhoGAM during and after pregnancy, but otherwise took charge of the whole thing. The only complication was that I gave birth on an old-timey sofabed and that bar across my sacral spine gave me backaches for a week.

Birthing took about 45 minutes start to finish—no tears, no complications, and we went out for tacos the next day to celebrate.

Unless they did a seriously crap job sewing you back together after your C-section, there’s no reason you can’t safely have a natural birth (or three) after that.

If I’d had a court get involved, I would have spit fire and sued everyone possible for usurping my rights as a mother.

human being in this equation. The fetus is unborn. For many, many religions across the world, it does not have a say in this situation. It isn't a child until it's first breath. And face it, these laws stripping women of bodily autonomy and rights are based in nothing more than white christianist supremacy. One religion telling another what they will believe, do, and say. To say nothing of taking liberties with CUTTING into the woman without her permission. Gee... how would the guys like to have their penis splayed open on an operating room table under the course lights, without not only giving permission, but adamantly fighting against it for *whatever* reason? After all, do men have bodily autonomy rights when women don't? What can be taken from one can be taken from the other. And going into the future, I'm glad I'm female. Because let me tell you.... we're pissed.

I dear say she knows more than a judge. This is so.done whose job it is to bring life into this world.

Doctors with years of medical school and residency's and certifications can be shitty doctors, sued for malpractice, lose their licenses. One would think she may be qualified but how do you know in an emergency situation when more qualified persons believe so strongly she is wrong. People aren't always as objective when it comes to personal decisions and her judgement could be clouded.

Just that as outsiders it's pretty hard to say what's going on at a deeper level. If there is NEVER a time to intervene, the answer is pretty cut and dried. Otherwise it is that slippery slope that will never have a complete consensus.

Yes, you do, but ultimately, it is their decision.

I didn't want an episotomy with my last, but the doctor insisted. I didn't have a choice.

In the case of C-Sect: They will let you go until there are signs of neonatal distress. You can protest like hell, but it will fall on deaf ears: Liability.

I'm surprised there was a three hour hearing. Infant always comes first. Always has. Yes, C-Sects suck, but that's the way it is.

If she didn't want a C-Sect, she should have a found a facility that doesn't perform them, BUT those facilities will insist on transferring you to a hospital if they think you need one.

Women should not lose the right to bodily autonomy just because they're pregnant.

Some women with very high risk pregnancies are having very dangerous underground home births because of these policies. I don't think that's making things safer for anyone.

once it is at child stage they don't give a shit

... that the fetus is more important than the woman or the child about to be born. Because, as far as Republicans are concerned, the kid's on its own as soon as it takes its first breath. They do not give a flying fuck about anything or anyone; they just want control, and dominion over the lives of others, and there's no more easy target than a pregnant woman in labor. Crocodile tears for the unborn is just a convenient wedge issue for them to exploit. They are devoid of humanity in even its most fundamental form.
Remember Joni Ernst's callous comment, "Hey, everybody dies"? Well, somewhere out there is some undoubtedly suppressed document that details how many innocent women have died because of some Republican men's diseased belief that if they'd stayed in the kitchen where they belonged, they wouldn't have had to kill them.

Cattle.

Are women’s bodies really government property?

Our history of slavery continues to haunt us.

Too many Americans are truly barbaric.

I can't understand how any woman would want to live is such a misogynistic place.

The first pregnancy - 3 weeks past due date -I was in labor for close to 48 hours including 8 hours on pitocin. They finally took me up to x-ray and found cephalopelvic disproportion. Second pregnancy I went into labor 6 weeks early because I had been throwing furniture around trying to save it from a broken pipe. The doctor gave me a test of labor for a few hours and then advised a c-section because again labor wasn't progressing. I went into shock from that surgery. My tiny daughter and I survived. Third pregnancy, I went into labor when my water broke on my exact due date - there was meconium in the amnionic fluid. Had an emergency c-section. The umbilical cord was wrapped around my son's neck and he was suffocating. He would have died if I didn't have the surgery. For my 4th pregnancy I insisted to go through a test of labor. My regular doc was on vacation. I refused to sign the consent form for surgery. The doctor on call called my doc who spoke with me on the phone. He had delivered my last child. He told me that my uterus was "paper thin" and that there was a severe risk of it rupturing.

He sounded frantic. I trusted him and agreed to the c-section. At the time I was a medical herbalist - I had had a bit of education and training but not so much that I would ever go against a competent doctors advice - I was taught that in my training. In this instance I think the doula was considering philosophical reasons and not necessarily what was best for the mother and baby.

We tied my tubes during my fourth c-section delivery.

Note: this is just my experience, but I do understand how the doctor and hospital were covering themselves in this instance.

The reality of your situation each time seems to have made the C-section the correct decision.

Wow, and congratulations.

I don't think this story was quite as one-sided as it sounded,. although her experience sounds traumatic.

was from mostly from the doula's insistence. Childbirth is a pretty traumatic experience overall - trauma that is soon forgotten at first sight of the miracle of a healthy newborn child.

Once you're in the hospital and have certain types of complications, it really isn't your decision anymore.

You sign those papers when you are admited. Doctor determines if you need a C-Sect. You do have a bit of a say, but as you can see with your last pregnancy you didn't have much. If you would have refused, I don't know what would have happened. There is a thing called "Going Against Medical Advice".

Heck, I didn't want an episotomy with my last one, but doctor insisted. I guess I could have dug in my heels, but it wasn't worth it. I knew what would have happened if I did. I was quite sore and it prolonged my recovery. (I didn't have one with my second child) But, it wasn't worth fighting over.....I knew the consequences of going against something like this..(I didn't want to get dumped by the doctor)

I hooked up with this doctor after I was dumped by another OB Gyn. She was very holostic, but she dumped me because I had fibromyalgia and I needed some meds. So, she dumped me. "If you take meds when you're pregnant, I don't want you". So I found the other doctor who was willing to accomodate my medical condition. So, epistomy it was...(Small price to pay)

Don't get me started on doctor dumping...Being black listed is worse than a forced C-Sect. I took care of drug addicts who were denied prenatal care from all doctors. Doctors don't have to do shit for you and can dump you for NO reason....

Outside of serious emergencies. Studies and experience have shown that natural tearing heals better than incision.

I'm in the middle of my OB rotation at the moment. It's interesting.

Politically, a three hour hearing in the middle of labor is insane.

Medically . . . well, let's just say I would have loved being a fly on the wall while the medical staff discussed this amongst themselves.

They are probably still discussing it and will for years.

1986: High Forceps (wish I would have given up and done the C-Sect. I think there was some mild brain damage. There were some decels and I was on O2. Son had really bad ADHD)

1990: All natural, except oral antibiotics for Group B vaginal strep.

1992: On oral antibiotics for the above again. Also on IV antibiotics for Group B strep during labor. (I was in the hospital for about two hours before I delivered) He broke my water just before I started pushing and did the episotmy afterward. (I knew he was gonna do this all in advance) I wanted all natural, but my doc with second delivery wasn't on my plan. No L&D complications.

I'm actually taking a break as I post this from reading acceleration and deceleration on strips for a midterm next week.

It's interesting to hear about these experiences and compare them to what is being taught now. They don't even teach high forceps in OB, and people seem to regard them now in the same way one would 19th century medical tools. Of course, the trade off to that is more C-sections.

You must have some great stories from your time working.

I, on the other hand, am spending my Saturday night on more homework. Papers on pre-eclampsia and gestational diabetes don't write themselves, alas.

My first was two weeks past due date...fetal distress during induction led to emergency c-section that was delayed by the doctor not answering her page. By the time another doctor arrived at the hospital to do the surgery, my baby was gone. An ounce shy of ten pounds, the only girl I'd have.

Two miscarriages later, uterus had a really thin spot, so it was advised that I do a c-section. After the first experience, I took that option and had my first son, who is now 25.

Third one, again, uterus stretched thin....had a 9 pound baby boy. He's 23.

We were done, but at age 42, I found myself pregnant again...talked to doctor about a non-surgical birth, but again, thin uterine wall, so we had another one...my youngest who is still in high school at 17. Got tubes tied after they delivered him.

I'm glad I had them the way I did, because losing that first one nearly broke me, but I know a lot of women who have been able to do the VBAC and did well. In the end, it should be an informed choice.

Having a hearing without an advocate for the woman in labor is wrong. They should have let her make her own decision or waited a bit longer, because this seems like it was about liability for the hospital/doctor, not concern for the mother and child.

At very least, there should have been a lawyer appointed to represent the woman who was in labor.

unconscious with no next of kin available to question)... And yes, after many decades of questionably necessary C-sections- often at the convenience of the (tired of) waiting OBs, this is a disgrace. I don't doubt for a moment there is blatant racism, controlling misogynistic ideology, and sheer wanton ignorance at play among these judges. We are way past time to turn this around--no more all male judges, attorneys, and other nonmedical people making these decisions. No more physician panels without both women OB's and POC on those review and policy panels. No more white male hospital attorneys sans ANY female (and preferably POC) attorneys with whom they work and consult on these matters.

And just like our hospital (at least teaching hospitals) post mortem ("Death Board" ) reviews, these kind of complaints should receive a formal in-house review among the wider hospital expertise and representative health care worker population.

It might be helpful, if you have time, to cross post to Women’s Rights here:

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1138

Thanks again! ❤️

The only patient in that room is the pregnant woman and the only people who should be discussing a C-Section are the pregnant woman and her doctor.

The mother is the primary patient and she needs to be on board with whatever the birth plan is. Otherwise, she's more prone to having breastfeeding problems, experience significant pain, risk infection, and just having a bad time around the birth of her baby.

You sign those waivers when you're admitted.

My first one, I resisted and they did finally attempted forceps. She said, "If this doesn't work, you'll need a C-Sect". It worked, but I would have needed a C-Sect if I hadn't. I was running a fever at that point. Water had been broken almost 24 hours. After he was born, they cultured group B Strep from behind his ear.

I don't know what would have happened if they couldn't get him out with forceps and I refused a C-Sect. I know I would have been labeled "Going Against Medical Advice"

Would they have needed to contact a judge? Who knows? But I know I would have put my infant and myself at risk by refusing.

The forceps sucked. I couldn't sit for several weeks. Breastfeeding didn't go well.

I took all the child birth classes, la leche league classes, I was active in la leche league, I worked in NICU.....And boy did I want a natural childbirth...LOL Forceps was not natural...I was cut from hole to hole

It happens....

my OB recommended a C-section for my first after 24 hours of induced labor. I still had time since my amniotic sac was ruptured 12 hours earlier. My BP was going up and I was developing a horrible headache that put pressure on my sinuses as well. My BP remained elevated for the next four days and I developed mild HELLP Syndrome. Spent a week in the hospital. At one point after taking lasix I awakened because my bladder was full. I voided over 1000ccs, over the top of the toilet hat. My K fell to just under 3.0, and I could barely speak. I received a quick infusion of KCl. My hemotocrit was low for the next month.

"Would they have needed to contact a judge? Who knows? But I know I would have put my infant and myself at risk by refusing."

That's scary. I remember feeling scared when my labor had to be induced, there are so many things that can go wrong! Why would a woman demand to go through something potentially dangerous to herself AND her baby?!

Because this "mother or baby" argument is disingenuous, since both are vulnerable and choosing sides is gross.


(Sorry, I responded to the wrong post.)

C-section rate in the nation. An article with interviews with local OBs would run every two or three years wherein they would explain why a C-section was needed, but not why our rate of C-sections was so high compared to the rest of the country. Our mother-baby mortality was no better or worse than the nation. It seemed like it might be a financial or convenience issue.

"Doyley, a professional birthing doula, didn’t want that (C-Section) and had been firm about it."

If she was determined not to have a c-section no matter what, and she's a professional birthing doula, why was she in the hospital? Wouldn't she have been more comfortable and more in control at home with her own birthing doula?

She and the baby look healthy, but I didn't find the outcome, did she have the c-section?

If she didn't and the baby was strangled on the umbilical cord, then what? Lawsuit?

When I was giving birth I *wanted* my baby to survive! I can't imagine the never ending guilt if there had been a problem and I decided I wanted to live more and sacrificed my baby.

and it describes the circumstances of two woman. A little confusing, I think one woman was 24 hours labor the other 12 hours before the courts intervened. My own personal experience for my first birthing experience 1971, 12 hours of contractions not strong enough to get to 10 cm. Baby's heart rate started to drop, so I got oxytocin, and was told to push. It took 2 hours of excruciating pain and pushing. I am pretty sure they used forceps too. My daughter, was almost 9 pounds, doctor said, she was just to large for my muscles and uterus to push her out. I was a small thin woman, now I am smaller but not thinner. If the doctors wanted me to have c-section, I probably would have said yes. My second daughter, (a pound lighter), I barely made it to the hospital in time, 3 pushes and a another beautiful baby girl.

The article, as far as I can tell, didn't detail the babies actual health conditions, that could of made a difference in the story. I don't know what the doctors do now, but after 10 hour of labor they broke the amniotic bag, didn't make a difference in dilation, then gave me oxytocin, which led to delivery.

It is truly a hard call. You could be right or wrong, but the patient, the woman giving birth, should be the one making decisions.

other people’s bodily autonomy to the state when it comes to reproduction specifically and health care in general.

This should have been addressed LONG before she went into labor.

Florida is pushing C-Sections because they lack good OB-GYN care

Florida becomes first state in the U.S. to allow C-sections outside of hospitals

https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida-becomes-first-state-u-s-allow-c-sections-outside-hospitals

Medical Experts Outraged by Florida’s New, First-in-the-Nation C-Section Law

https://www.jezebel.com/medical-experts-outraged-by-floridas-new-first-in-the-nation-c-section-law

The NY Times covered the story above and I wanted to link them because I don't know who Jezebel is but I am not a subscriber.

autonomy over their own bodies.

Ultimately this kind of thing causes some women to choose very risky home births rather than giving up all freedom of choice in the hospital.

are both very eye opening.