Also the doctors, social workers, teachers, counselors, psychologists, nurses, etc etc
in congress. Their staff and consultants, etc etc.

Many professions have a legal and ethical obligation to report.

Thesaurus.com lists corruption, disgrace, dishonesty, immorality, indecency, evil. All synonyms for "GOPee".

Their "platform" was "whatever Anus Orange wanted."

Four in ten younger American women are eyeing the exit.  

A record number of young American women are considering a move overseas, according to a new Gallup survey. In this year's poll, 40% of women ages 15 to 44 say they'd move abroad permanently if they had the chance, four times higher than in 2014. The desire to migrate began rising sharply around 2016, when Gallup conducted the poll months before the election, and has remained elevated since, regardless of which party holds the White House. This surge sets younger women apart, creating a 21-point gap with men in the same age bracket—the widest gender gap Gallup has seen in any country. In the 2014 poll, the desire to emigrate was roughly the same across age and gender groups.
Canada is the top destination for those looking to leave, followed by New Zealand, Italy, and Japan. Before 2016, younger women in the US were less likely than their counterparts elsewhere to want to move to a different country. They are now more likely to want to change country than women in other wealthy countries, where the numbers have stayed relatively steady. Younger American men, meanwhile, remain more likely than their peers elsewhere to want to stay put. Axios notes that in countries including Malta and Zambia, around 40% of women want to emigrate, but the figures in those countries are around the same for men.
The desire to leave the US appears to be linked to declining faith in American institutions, Gallup notes. Over the past decade, young women's confidence in the government, judiciary, military, and elections has dropped more sharply than in any other group. The Supreme Court's Dobbs decision, which overturned Roe v. Wade, may have played a part in this, with confidence in the judiciary falling from 55% in 2015 to 32% in 2025 among young women. However, the desire to migrate began rising well before that ruling.

They can’t have all the breeding stock just deciding to leave.

Now, trump opened new investigations to keep doj files hidden.
I read trump named like a thousand times? Yeah, trump gonna hit the kill switch as long as he can

the evidence is apparant and verifiable.

Which is that it's therefore logical to conclude that "JE as Pedophile-in-Chief, Big-Time Supplying Kids to the Powerful Cabal of Rich Pedos" storyline, believed in by a lot of people, is the less likely reality.

Because everything you said is true.

And relatedly, the way that someone gets away with crimes like his, for as long as he did, is by NOT making it so obvious that other people are incriminated simply by being witnesses to your actions. It's simple math, really. "Covering it up" is far smarter than NOT, all things considered.

And you'll notice the one thing we've NEVER seen is direct proof of any "ring", in these emails or in known interviews/testimony. In fact not even Guiffre's book asserts any knowledge thereof, if you parse it with that idea in mind, she never says there's a 'ring' she knows of. I think it's notable that she while she remains the only one to this day that has said they were trafficked by JE, but makes no claim to that effect in her book, no?

Incidentally, she was not a young-looking 17. JE's pilots testified they had no idea she was a minor, and that she was the youngest to travel on the plane unaccompanied by a guardian. I just mention that in the context that this means there's a possibility she was only one victim actually "trafficked", which logically opens the possibility that, Andrew aside (according to her statements, not under oath), the "perps" may have fallen for a honey-pot scenario, and didn't know her real age.

I mean, can't you totally see Epstein gathering info/power for himself via sexual kompromat by forcing VG (specifically, and ONLY) to have sex with a few select rich buddies, at 17, but telling them she's "barely legal", so it costs 15K or some shit?

"Epstein mostly acting alone" is the most sensible starting point based on what we really know, IMHO.

YUCK

Unless one prophesizes the absolute worst case scenario is the one and only "true" one, someone is going to be unhappy with your opinion. I've been thinking the most likely scenario is that Epstein was running a honey pot type of operation trying to get kompromat on wealthy people (perhaps to them extort them?) for a long time, but I've also been very open to new evidence to convince me that it's incorrect. But it never comes.

Now, I'm not saying the people who "partook" are innocent by any stretch, I'm just pointing out they may have known less than we collectively tend to assume.

I mean Epstein was shady AF, and where his money came from is shady. To the degree he purposefully involved 'others', that whole thing may have been an "op" of his own, and it's possible the only minor he trafficked in this way (i.e. to his rich buddies like Andrew) was Guiffre, because he had her VERY manipulated and under his control. But nobody else has ever made scale of the claims she made about OTHER'S direct involvement. Nor did she herself claim 1st hand knowledge of other victims being "shared" in the manner that she was. The exception to that in her book was her claim of an "orgy" at Epstein's island, involving girls who "looked young", but also were foreign, didn't speak English, she didn't know them, where they're from, etc.

When you look closely, the evidence of a serious sort of a "pedo-ring" is just not there.

any sort of giant organized pedo ring but clearly Epstein had "clients" that he offered his "services" to.

https://www.rawstory.com/epstein-marjorie-taylor-greene/

We can only point at one person and say "this person personally confirmed Epstein trafficked her to others". Of COURSE I'm not saying JE/VG didn't have many many victims, don't take me wrong on that. I'm only remarking on what we really *know* of the actual scope of people in the know, and those purposefully committing sex crimes with underage girls. There does not have to be a 'ring' i.e. a bunch of people in the know of what each other is up to for absolutely terrible stuff to have transpired, we KNOW that happened.

Also out of curiosity, what is threshold for someone to be called a 'victim' in this list of 37, do we know?

Man, I have no idea where you're coming from. You truly seem to think only Virginia's word is gospel, when she's already been caught red handed lying. There's no dealing with you it seems.

wherein that person has clearly gone on record in some way (preferably testimony under oath, but an interview will do) wherein that non-VG victim said they were trafficked TO someone OTHER than Epstein? Even without naming names, just saying, "yes that was happening to me, like Virginia said happened to her". Please, feel free to put me in my place, show me my understanding is wrong. It *could* be, so I'll await your proof I am. I am keen to hear if I am wrong on this, for real, because it underpins a lot of how I think about aspects of this case.

I absolutely do NOT think Virginia Giuffre is the only one telling the truth, and in fact, I defend her credibility mostly because she is a victim and it's untoward to doubt any victim, ever, in cases like these. I think she's embellished certain facts, but I kinda don't blame her given what she went through. I think it's worth considering that she's been unreliable in terms of accurately identifying who the rich buddies of Epstein actually were that molested her. She didn't necessarily 100% know their identities, put it like that.

But, she has said she was 'shared' by Epstein, and no other victim has done so publicly, to my knowledge. That's the point. That's why I am skeptical of there being a 'ring' or 'cabal' around Epstein. I think there would be more girls than just the 1 saying they were trafficked to Epstein's rich buddies. I think it's *possible* she may have been the only one who suffered that fate, that's really all I'm saying. The possibility is NOT excluded based on currently known facts.

"Groff's job included "making appointments for Epstein as directed by him, taking his messages, and setting up high-level meetings with CEOs, business executives, scientists, politicians, celebrities, charitable organizations, and universities," her attorneys also said.

In a lawsuit filed in 2021 but later dropped, "Jane Doe" claimed that in some of these ways Groff facilitated Epstein's sexual abuse. Jane Doe claimed Epstein abused and trafficked her from 2017 right up until he got arrested in 2019. Groff paid her cash after the abuse, Doe alleged.

Both Doe and Groff agreed to dismiss the lawsuit after Maxwell was found guilty."

And of course there's Dershowitz.

Look, I'm always looking to see if I'm wrong on this one, but in your post, this victim Jane Doe is not reported as explicitly claiming Epstein directed her to have sex with other men.

"In a lawsuit filed in 2021 but later dropped, "Jane Doe" claimed that in some of these ways Groff facilitated Epstein's sexual abuse. Jane Doe claimed Epstein abused and trafficked her from 2017 right up until he got arrested in 2019".

This quote is an example of why so many people are under the impression that a bunch of girls have claimed Epstein trafficked them to OTHERS, but if you parse things closely, they never actually say that. Only Guiffre said that, about herself. And this Jane Doe is literally the only victim I've heard of that claimed they met Epstein after his jail stint. So she's a bit of an outlier, fwiw.

You might focus on the word "trafficked", but it's use is vague in this context, because if she was a minor, being paid for sex with an adult, then *many* people would (and do) call that "trafficking". Maybe this author would as well, we just don't know.

What's your point about Dersh?

I proved to you someone stated they were trafficked. You can't accept that.

Take care.

is often used to describe a person paying a minor for sex, therefore this reporting lacks the important detail in question.

If you went out and tried to find examples (as I have many times) you likely found, as I did, there is an extremely scarcity of known/established victims that have claimed outright that Epstein was doing to them what Guiffre said he did with her, i.e. like passing her around, telling her to give "massages" to his rich friends, etc.

My logic is that if there really were a "ring", it should not be hard to find a KNOWN victim who claims there was a "ring", that they had experiences like Guiffre being told to service other men, etc. Even without "naming names", the known victims have simply not publicly backed the idea of an actual sex trafficking ring, or said they were abused by people other than Epstein/Maxwell.

So my fundamental question is "was it really a "ring", or was it more like an Epstein "operation", possibly to get dirt on people, so he could extort them, keep them from ratting on him", etc. I am FAR from the only person to have speculated on this possibility in the past 7 years, and so far, it cannot be ruled out as being closer to the truth than an organized cabal/ring of rich pedos, talking to each other, knowing what each other were up to.

I'm asking you to provide proof to the contrary that is more concrete than a reporter describing a particular anonymous case as trafficking. Not trying to piss you off or frustrate you my friend

Jane Doe declares that she was sexually abused by Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein at parties in New York City when she was 13 years old in 1994. She states that Trump forcibly raped her and physically struck her, threatening her and her family if she spoke about the abuse. Epstein also raped her and physically assaulted her, threatening her family. Both Trump and Epstein indicated they had the power and means to carry out their threats. Due to their threats and ongoing media coverage of Trump, Doe has lived in fear and is seeking a protective order from the court to protect herself and her family from retaliation by Trump and Epstein.

https://www.scribd.com/document/326057168/Jane-Doe-Declaration-as-Filed

Tiffany Doe declares that she witnessed Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein sexually abuse the plaintiff, who was 13 years old at the time, on multiple occasions between 1990-2000. Doe states she observed Trump forcibly rape the plaintiff and physically abuse her and another 12-year old girl. Doe also witnessed Epstein attempt to rape and sodomize the plaintiff as well as physically and sexually abuse other underage girls. Both men threatened the plaintiff if she spoke about the abuse. Doe fears for her life due to making this declaration but provides it under penalty of perjury.

https://www.scribd.com/document/326057237/Tiffany-Doe-Declaration

Sounds like it. If so, that case was *extremely* sketchy. What I meant was have any of the known victims (of which there are about 15 at this point) made that claim? Not whether there a completely anonymous person who never went to court, never testified, never gave an interview, etc, who made that claim.

Is there something like that?

You seem pretty devoted to this being a big nothing. Am I misreading you?

Not disputing that they ARE victims.
I remember in the recent press conference one of the victims said to the effect; "WE will get together & make our own list"; to which MTG said "If they give me that list I will read it on the floor of the House"
I'd like to see that too. This HAS been going on for years, why is Virginia the only one to really get any justice? Give us the names.
Yes, I know about the Katie Johnson accusation & I'd LOVE to see her interviewed. But that hasnt happened & no one even knows where she is for the past 10 years.
But there are others.

You would logically want to limit the number of people who are aware of what you are up to. I assume Epstein is a pedo (duh) and wants to get away with molesting minors. Therefore I think the base, starting point of how he, or anyone committing crimes, would approach getting away with it is to NOT TELL a bunch of people that's what you're doing. You already have a ton of exposure vis-a-vis the girls.

I'm not a criminal myself of course but I've watched a lot of true crime TV and movies about crimes, so to me it seems like the last thing you'd do is start involving a bunch of your rich buddies, all of which would be facing criminal exposure by knowing what you're up to and not reporting it. It seems like "Crime-ing 101" would be limiting the number of people who know of your crimes.

Which makes me think why would he try to set up a 'ring' (outside of the victims themselves, who we know he had act as recruiters)? How would doing so enable him to get away the crime, because I think it does not. So I think the sensible baseline position is to assume he was *hiding* it (such as by not telling people the girls around him are under 18), not advertising it, until such time as there's solid proof otherwise. Which there is not, as of yet, that I've seen.

I'm not even sure where you're getting this "let everyone know about it" angle.

What's the evidence that Epstein was bragging about what he was doing?

Which cabinet member is it who lived next door to Epstein, and said he went to Epstein's one time, and Epstein was all about "get a massage"?

There were a lot of people involved. And once they were compromised, they were going to stay silent.

That's kind of the deal, isn't it?

I'm saying the logical thing to do if you're Epstein is to NOT let people know you're soliciting minors to have sex for money. Same principle with how most people get away with most crimes. They hide it as much as possible, esp. if it's a shameful act that the vast majority of people disapprove of.

I'm saying that creating a "prostitution ring" would increase your odds of being caught A LOT, esp. if everyone knows the girls are underage trafficking victims. If you're him, how can you be sure someone you try to involve doesn't just go "WTF are you talking about, creep?", and turn you in? Every person you made "in the know" by involving them in your "ring" is another chance to get busted. So why would he have done so?

The available facts are more suggestive of an operation to compromise people (perhaps using Guiffre in particular, since she is the only known victim to have publicly claimed to have been told to give "sexual massages" to Epstein's rich buddies), than an actual "ring" where lots of girls are, like, sent to lots of different men, but the men all knew each other, what each other was up to, to the point they organized a perfectly executed "suiciding" of Epstein in jail, etc.

I'll just leave it at this: as more info hopefully comes out, we'll see what happens. You can come back and read me the proverbial riot act if my logic turns out to be completely off-base, okay? I promise, I will mea culpa like a mofo on this, friend.

It seems very confusing for you.

I hope you get it sorted out!

I completely understand what I mean, but apparently I can't effectively explain it. So be it.

DUer blaming the Epstein victims.

She was not a young looking 17. For fucking sakes, this is disgusting and not unlike what Megyn Kelly said.

about what Giuffre's age was. I am ABSOLUTELY NOT blaming her. I'm considering the possibility that Epstein was involved in a shakedown type of situation, where he told these rich guys "hey this girl just turned 18" or something. That doesn't make any such men INNOCENT, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying don't KNOW for sure. The fact that she was not so young-looking that you look at her and go "no way she's 18" allows for that *possibility*. The pilots didn't know she was not 18. This means it's possible he wasn't telling anyone around that she was not 18. Please though, NOT saying that ANYTHING was her fault! I'm not a monster, just trying to piece everything together, and not ruling out possibilities when the evidence does not (yet) rule it out.

We've no way of knowing how many girls were victimized. But I strongly agree with you on one point, AZ. Epstein was in the business of collecting and selling kompromat on the rich and famous. The girls were used to achieve that. That's what it was really all about; that's how he made his fortune.
I'm really flabbergasted that more attention hasn't been given to the email in which Epstein's brother asks if Putin has "seen the pictures". To me, that explains trump's subservient attitude towards Putin and how it has shaped our country's relationship with him. I think that is far more damning than pictures of trump with naked girls.

pass up an opportunity to make lots of money. He was a partner.

And I have no idea why my words there are being interpreted as saying that. Fundamentally I'm wondering if Epstein hid the fact that Guiffre was not of legal age, or that she was being trafficked (i.e. that he was paying her to give 'massages' to some of his rich friends, or that they paid him, either of which is where trafficking charges would come from).

We know he did not represent Guiffre as a minor to the pilots of his plane. This makes me wonder if didn't disclose that to his rich buddies either. Could he have been trying to get kompromat on them? Told them "hey this girl is legal, and she loves guys like you" type of thing. Then they partake, then Epstein owns their ass, because she was NOT of legal age. That's all I'm considering as a possibility, not that destroying any of girls lives is something I'm okay with

Anyone who claims journalistic or attorney/client “privilege” should be reminded that nobody is supposed to be above the law. Of course, we all know that isn’t the case but, in theory…

after not reporting child abuse is something that I don't understand.

There once was a person who knew
Of harm done to some - quite a few.
But they chose not to tell,
And that silence, as well,
Made them part of the wrong that ensued.

If a hint or a shadow you see
Of a child hurt in secrecy,
You must speak, you must shout,
Bring the matter right out—
For to hold it is morally key.

There are folks who hold files in their hands,
Public servants with power and commands.
When they hide what they’ve learned,
Every back that they’ve turned
Writes a stain no procedure remands.

A process can look clean and tight,
All “rules” set to get justice right.
But one must always ask
Who benefits from the task—
Is it victims, or those out of sight?

There’s a trail that divides wrong from right,
A bright line drawn in ethical light.
Some step up, some step back,
And integrity’s track
Shows who fled and who rose to the fight.

Because they can wait patiently for that just like Mexico paying for the wall, inflation prices coming down, and billionaires trickling down job creation.

Duty to report is a real thing. It sounds like lots of people saw plenty of evidence and didn't report. Maybe the career FBI/DOJ folks who were ordered to scrub his name from the files will spill the beans. Especially if he already fired them.

What if Trump isn't really in the "files" but inherited sole ownership of the Trump/Epstein global blackmail operation.

Exposing the workings would cost him a fortune in blackmail payments, control of all the blackmailed persons and ... well, everything.

Lots of DU'ers think so, emphatically.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220735608

info on tRump.

Why else is that sleaze isstill in power?

Also for historical reasons and the powerful Israel lobby in the US, US presidents really bend over backwards to satisfy Israel PMs.

Though I hope this changes with the next POTUS.

once he "figured out what was going on".

Of course that story has fallen apart but I bet a lot of MAGAts still believe it.

He could be hanging from a rope & they'd say "The dems are falling into his trap!"

They know what is there. Surely there must be one or two agents who still support democracy and the rule of law.

how you react to what Trump did is on you.....including dragging your feet to slow down the investigation.

accompanied by the name/s of other well known politicians and public figures who may have something to hide, or who may be compromised as a result.

Had Epstein murdered.

I mean I've been thinking that for a long time. Pedo Trump was the only one to gain so much from the sex trafficker's death.

And that stupid idea that there was no "ring" of pedos trafficking kids is kind of silly. What you may call a ring, I call a lose organization of elderly rich pedophiles who kept their mouth shut about child sex abuse. Call it a ring or a lose criminal organization. Does it really matter?

Even if some were lured by honey pot scams, they still got it on with little girls. Some of those girls looked like they hadn't even gone through puberty yet. And elderly filthy-rich men were attracted to that? Makes me wonder where are the male pedophile victims.

EVERY time the subject comes up.

1 Virginia G was introduces to Epstein at Mar A Largo,where she worked.
2 Trump and Epsteins friendship dissolved over a business deal, not because of what Epstein was doing.
3 Trump has a history of paying off inconvenient woman and I wonder if he paid off any of the girls.

I believe there a far more unnamed victims who can't speak for legal or financial reasons. I bet there are dozens of 'Melanias' out there, second and third trophy wives with pre-nups. 'How did you meet your husband?' 'At an Epstein 'model' party!'

No one in the media has the guts to ask those questions anymore.

they continue to BE a Republican, they protect the "pedophile-in-chief"---

and their Democratic opponents should NOT be shy in calling them that!!!



If the shoe was on the other foot, the GQP would not hesitate....
Why should we? (and also "bring out the long list" of all the GQP politicians and operatives
who have been charged and/or convicted of sex crimes against minors!)

'Nuff said.