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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm not sure who (Victim) in the email was, but I think the GQP's claim it was Virginia Guiffre is BS!
And here is why:
She recanted earlier public statements implying Trump was present with girls at Epsteins.
She stated: I do not believe [Trump] had any knowledge of Epsteins misconduct with underage girls.
She denied seeing Trump act inappropriately or with any of Epsteins victims.
So far so good for the regime, right? This all makes saying " (Victim) was Virginia Guiffre" sound like a brilliant strategy for them. Like yeah, he spent hours with her there, but it was sunshine and rainbows! And conveniently for them, she cannot be contacted to confirm nor deny this assertion
Here's the problem for these liars, though, from the same deposition:
These excerpts are from her court deposition during the 2015 Maxwell defamation trial, and represent her sworn account on the record
She cannot simultaneously have "spent hours at (Epstein's) place with (Trump) ", per the email, yet "never see him at any of Epstein's properties" per her testimony. These are mutually exclusive.
I think House Republicans were quick to blurt out Guiffre's name because they knew she had said exonerating things about Trump under oath. Leadership probably knew of the existence of these emails a long time ago, and had this angle prepared if they did come out.
But I bet they thought we'd all miss the part where she also testified, explicitly, under oath, and even in the very same sitting, that she was NEVER WITH TRUMP at Epstein's place!
Which leads to the question ... WHO IS (VICTIM), in actuality? Perhaps someone who could still be spoken to? Someone who does NOT have such exonerating words to share about him?
This particular enquiring mind wants to know. Why are they LYING about who (Victim) is?
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,164 posts)"She testified under oath:
She recanted earlier public statements implying Trump was present with girls at Epsteins."
So she lied at least once. How do we know what the real truth is with her?
AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)In her deposition and subsequent interviews, Giuffre clarified that some of her earlier statements were either misquoted, taken out of context, or based on rumors rather than personal experience.
She explained:
She was, at the time, recounting what shed heard from others in Epsteins circle, not what she personally witnessed.
Anything I may have said before was hearsay or based on what was going around those circlesI never saw it myself.
She stated she wanted her sworn record to represent her true firsthand knowledge, distancing herself from previous media implications.
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,164 posts)One can believe or not believe her. Sounds more to me that someone got to her.
AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)But she was freaking FEARLESS, man. She's the one that went out and held everyone to account!
The ENTIRE "Epstein List"? That's her list, in fact it is all from this very trial (Maxwell, 2015):
The list of people Virginia Giuffre named, under oath in the 2015 Maxwell defamation lawsuit deposition and subsequent legal filings, as those Epstein ordered her to give massages (which, by her testimony, was a euphemism for sexual acts) includes:
George Mitchell Former U.S. Senate Majority Leader and Special Envoy to the Middle East
Jean-Luc Brunel French modeling agent and scout
Alan Dershowitz Harvard Law professor and attorney (a Trump legal ally at times)
Prince Andrew, Duke of York British royal
Glenn Dubin Billionaire hedge fund owner (Highbridge Capital)
Marvin Minsky MIT computer scientist and AI pioneer
By Description (from Giuffres testimony where she could not recall or did not give a name):
Another prince, whose name she did not know (distinct from Prince Andrew)
A prominent head of state (not specifically identified)
High-profile businessmen and academics (some named, others described generally in testimony)
Prominent figures in fashion and modeling
So these are powerful people, rich people, and she went and named names, so I don't see a strong reason to suspect that in the one particular case of Donald Trump, she turns tail and runs? About even SEEING him there at his place? I judge this to be unlikely. I think she'd have told whoever tried to "get to her" to go pound sand, but I could be wrong.
In the event I am, then we'd take the whole THING to be false, in which case, (Victim) COULD be Guiffre, however, that means she did NOT exonerate Trump under oath, so the GQP has a different problem because Giuffre provides no cover for them.
I thought this all through before I posted
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,164 posts)so it's something I can't argue or even debate over. It's really all conjecture at this point.
TommyT139
(2,097 posts)...but cannot testify, of course.
Response to BeerBarrelPolka (Reply #8)
Volaris This message was self-deleted by its author.
mgardener
(2,235 posts)Hugin
(37,165 posts)Which we've since learned somehow for some reason and very unusually contained a rider allegedly barring the investigation/prosecution of other parties/accomplices. It's probably safe to assume that the testimony was massaged to support the charge Epstein acted alone. So, your caution in the interpretation of anything public drawn from that is a good idea.
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,164 posts)I know she was a victim, but if I was on the jury, I would not consider her testimony credible.
Hugin
(37,165 posts)But, it's not like there aren't plenty of other victims who have yet to have their testimony heard out there.
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,164 posts)Just yesterday, emails were released that state Trump was at Epstein's house. We need more testimony to get a clear picture.
TommyT139
(2,097 posts)...I have heard discussed a few different emails, clearly different victims. In one of them, Giuffre's name was mentioned by people on MSNBC who are very careful about only alluding to names when they are in public material (and/or the victim has discussed them in public or books).
There was another person, in an email and also the anecdote about the "joke" check.
Often in these sorts of things, there is a naming convention: "Person 1," "Person 2" and so on. But that is not happening with these releases.
jmbar2
(7,465 posts)https://www.tarapalmeri.com/p/the-disappearing-epstein-jane-doe
She has since disappeared.
Callie1979
(1,044 posts)BeerBarrelPolka
(2,164 posts)Callie1979
(1,044 posts)That whole thing was up & down so quickly it was odd. but she did have that high powered well know lawyer; someone should ask HER about all this. Lisa Bloom was one, another guy just recently spoke out & said he 100% believed her. His name is Thomas Meagher I think.
BeerBarrelPolka
(2,164 posts)AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)Here's AI overview if you don't care/have time to read it all (although I always click through to the real article when I use AI like this, so the content creators make a little ad money
The plaintiff "Katie Johnson" ( also used "Jane Doe" ) was anonymous and never appeared publicly, even at a scheduled press conference, citing fear from death threats.
The case featured two anonymous witnesses whom the press couldnt interview, and was promoted by two highly dubious charactersan ex-reality TV producer known as "Al Taylor" and a conservative activist, Steve Baerwith an obvious anti-Trump agenda. They shopped the story to various outlets aggressively but few covered it due to credibility concerns.
Journalists couldnt verify Johnsons identity or the details of her claims. The only journalist who said they interviewed her left largely confused and doubting her existence.
Documents listed a foreclosed, abandoned address and disconnected phone number for Johnson, creating more suspicion.
The allegations themselvesviolent rape at age 13 involving Trump and Epsteinwere described as almost cinematic in their depravity. Some initial claims were omitted from later filings, like Trump supposedly giving money for an abortion and using anti-Semitic slurs against Epstein.
Vox points out the case was promoted in bizarre ways, including attempts to sell videotaped testimony for $1 million.
Elements like volatile promoters, inconsistent communications, and questions raised even by journalists and investigators made it one of the most suspicious and contested cases among the Trump allegations.
Summary: The Vox article highlights why Katie Johnson's case was both uniquely disturbing and deeply suspicious, with many details unverifiable and promoted via questionable actors, making it an outlier among the Trump-related lawsuits
Callie1979
(1,044 posts)Even though she's no longer with us
Thats what CNN said.
But its also not unheard of that she was pressured. It could have contributed to her suicide.
ColoringFool
(109 posts)Victim of the Andrew Formerly Known As Prince.
What are the odds, really, of Andrew and Trump's being at the same Epstein property at the same time? Thus, what are the odds of VIRGINIA and Trump.....? Likely exactly as she testified.
But for one girl out of thousands to not have seen Trump is in no known Universe any kind of blanket exoneration of him.
Only a fool would believe so, and only someone who thought others fools would declare so.
No. There are, or were when they were alive, other victims of the then-bon vivant Bestie of Jeffrey.
AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)(Victim) being Virginia Guiffre in this context is the best possible 'answer' for Trump, because, under oath in 2015, she says she never saw Trump do anything wrong. She is like the ONE PERSON who has basically exonerated him from doing anything wrong (in relation to herself).
However, as I said in the OP, in that SAME testimony, she explicitly said she never saw Trump at an Epstein property. Whereas if she is (Victim), then Epstein's email is clearly saying Virginia was, in fact, with Trump for hours at his house. They can't both be true. That is the one and only point to what I'm saying, nothing to do with any 'blanket exoneration' for Trump. Of course she's only 1 person out of innumerable possible others
ColoringFool
(109 posts)As some kind of "See?! TRUMP IS INNOCENT!" deal.
Torchlight
(6,152 posts)Good luck
live love laugh
(16,112 posts)allegorical oracle
(6,020 posts)maintenance, or something. Then he got his daughter, Virginia, a job there and she was a "spa" employee. At some time she was approached and offered an opportunity to become a masseuse, which she accepted. Thought she was the named employee who was "stolen" from djt -- and he has said that's when he got pissed at Epstein.
AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)I actually think it wasn't Trump himself who made that claim, but whoever did, IIRC they quickly backed away from it, realizing that it pretty much implicated Trump as having known what Epstein was up to, and didn't report it.
The falling out was because Trump snaked a Florida property that Epstein wanted at auction in 2002, a listing Epstein had asked his buddy Trump to look at with him, and give him his opinion on it shortly before. Which is the very same property Trump sold to a Russian oligarch 6 years later in 2008 (at the nadir of the housing market!) for more than DOUBLE what he'd bought it for in 2002 (when property values were relatively high, though not as high as the heights around 2005-the bust).
In fact, Epstein told Michael Wolff in a 2015 interview that he believed at the time (and still) that Trump got the cash to buy it at auction from the Russians, because Trump was WAY underwater at the time, business failing right and left. IOW, Epstein knew Trump was laundering oligarch money. Donald Jr. back that idea up in 2008 in fact when he admitted at some conservative seminar (iirc) that a lot of the money they had coming in was from Russia.
Prairie Gates
(6,885 posts)Moreover, the email with the redacted name was released by Democrats, who have not disputed the WH claim that the redacted name is Giuffre's.
muriel_volestrangler
(105,254 posts)However, unlike the fully redacted one put out by the US House Democrats, a name does appear:
"i want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is trump.. virignia spent hours at my house with him ,,"
Asked why the name was originally redacted, Representative Robert Garcia - the leading Democrat on the US House Oversight Committee - said the party will never release names of victims in line with the wishes of the families.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c2dr3z9egljt?post=asset%3A24f42665-d062-4ea3-af9c-8bff2adf1dc0#post
AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)So the fact they didn't dispute the GOP claim didn't seem important. Well then this revelation brings question to her entire exculpatory testimony regarding Trump to my mind, because as I mentioned she said all these nice things but those included never having seen him at an Epstein property. Now that we know she DID spend hours with him, what else about the way she covered for him was false, I wonder? And was she paid off to make that testimony does make sense as a question to ask I have to sadly admit
Prairie Gates
(6,885 posts)There are a number of explanations: he might have spent hours in the house, and knew she was there, but she didn't know he was there. There's nothing that says they spent the hours together, although I guess "spent hours with him" is probably pretty clear on that point.
Lifeafter70
(736 posts)To protect her family. Her father worked for trump. Trump could have threatened her family.
AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)Synopsis: I don't think she could be bullied, myself. She was very brave, she's the one who named names all along. Now, could she be bought? Not sure on that one but it's disturbing to consider, because SO much about what we all believe about the case as a whole relies on her, specifically, being a honest accountant of the facts. If she was just a money-grubber like that, it really screws up the entire storyline regarding any sort of "ring".
It wouldn't mean Epstein/Maxwell aren't still completely guilty as there are plenty of witnesses on that account, but Guiffre was unique in coming out and saying she was "trafficked to Epstein's rich friends". She *IS* the source of the suspicion in that particular regard.
Also the testimony was 2015 whereas her dad worked for Trump when she was hired at Mar A Lago in 2001. He could have been long gone.
Lifeafter70
(736 posts)Or that she could be bought. I don't get that vibe from her. I do get the vibe that she loved her family and they loved her.
Her mental health was fragile and trump and his minions would have exploited fhat and her love for her family
I think she worried about their safety and wanted to protect them.
Edited to add: in her book she accused her father of abuse and taking hush money from epstein. So I'm not sure why she would not name trump if they had any negative interactions
AZJonnie
(2,365 posts)Which has been estimated, but not disclosed, to be in the low-single-digit millions?
IOW, what if Trump lawyers contacted Maxwell lawyers and said "if she will go on record and exonerate Trump completely from wrongdoing, we know Maxwell well, tell her and her lawyers we will make sure she settles with you, before court, for $5M".
I'd add that, in fact, maybe their "hours long" time they were both (per Epstein) at Epstein's house was nothing sexual, maybe an actual massage, or maybe they didn't interact at all? This is why she'd be like "okay, whatever", if that gets me $5M and Maxwell settles, which looks bad for Maxwell?
At that point, 2015, Trump was running, or was about to. She had publicly said in the past that she'd seen Trump with young girls and Epstein, so she's already "a threat" to his candidacy. Then, out of the freaking blue, Maxwells lawyers ask her all these questions about Trump specifically, in a trial that is about Maxwell, not Trump, and she answers EXACTLY how Trump would want her to.
Then, even afterward, in interviews, she re-iterates the idea that she had nothing on Trump, things she said before were taken out of context, or she was reporting what other's told her, not what she saw, etc. Like she went OUT of her way to exonerate Trump. Including, apparently, even lying that she'd ever seen him at Epstein's place (assuming we can trust Epstein's recollection regarding something that happened 9 years earlier).
And then PERHAPS? That $5M? What if that actually came from Trump?
Lifeafter70
(736 posts)Maxwell is all about her and a get put jail free card.
On edit: I looked up virginia and maxwell lawsuit and you might be on to something.
There might be some non-disclosure attached to the settlement since they didn't disclose the amount virginia settled for.
But we will never know
choie
(6,443 posts)giuffre said trump was a perfect gentleman thats why.