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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe fall of Israel
When I read about Hitler and what he did to Jewish people, not only in Germany but in those countries where he brought war, I was moved, and anguished. Nobody deserves that.
But, what in utter HELL is Israel now doing to equally innocent children? I am divorced from my admiration for tough, Sabra Israel. It is true that a people may find themselves mired in circumstances that they haven't found a way to fix. Certainly, you can see it here in the States. There are all kinds of things to think about. But, we are speaking out, the world can hear some of our voices, and we are determined to root out the fascism that we are now rotting in. The Orange Pedophile will be gone one day.
But, how can Israel stand by and watch as children are starved to death? Yes, we know how much it hurt when Hamas committed acts against humanity. I can think of no one who doesn't understand that sorrow and grief. When they reacted with fury, they had our attention. But, holy fuck, what are they doing now??
We knew that they would annex Gaza and the Left Bank. Hello...But, I wasn't expecting them to starve people to death, or shoot them at food traps. This is a crime against humanity all on its own. They own this. Do they really think that they can sleep at night, knowing they did this? And now, when food shows up, they stop it. I guess they think it's funny. What else is there.
Our institutions are being torn asunder because of "antisemitism." Well, I guess there is some, maybe even a lot, I dunno. But one thing is for sure, I'm now anti Israel. I wasn't before. I even studied Hebrew, listened to Israeli music, and admired Israelis. Not so much now.
The world is at war. I get that. But, even in war, there has to be a bit of humanity still existing even if just a little bit. Someone has to say NO. Just, NO. Otherwise, they give away the lessons learned from their own tribulations. So long ago, when the innocents were led away, and no one knew what was going on, those souls are watching. Did Israel turn out to be that place of peace, or are they just going to allow children to starve to death, all in their name?
I hate what Hamas did. I seethe with anger at it. No tears for anyone who would do that. But, no child did that. And, Israel has a choice.
I think that Netanyahu is an authoritarian asshole who is the same as all the others that Trump admires. It's funny how all these less than stellar dics show up and lead the people down dark pathways. The people don't want that. I just don't see Israel breathing a sigh of relief when Gaza is leveled, no life, and Trump takes a chunk of it and builds a resort hotel on it. What good is that?
We have a fight on our hands. Trump has turned our own country into a morass of evil doing. Trump is evil. Netanyahu is evil. One day, they both will be dead, and we will have to live with how we acted against the evil they wrought. In the States, it's probably watching people being disappeared off the street, a sickening circumstance that needs to be addressed. In Israel, it's the starving to death of little children and their parents, with no further justification for it, just like in the concentration camps of Germany and other countries, so long ago. It's just that "Never again" apparently doesn't apply to little kids.
WE ARE BOTH IN TROUBLE. Stand up for your country. It is surprising how suddenly certain things that happen are of no further concern, in the face of truly evil actions. The things that got you going before just don't matter anymore. Always remember what Hamas did. But, don't get confused over it. It doesn't justify this starvation. And, it never will.
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biophile
(921 posts)Just like many here decry drumpf.
Exp
(597 posts)and taken away.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)If you don't see it it's because you haven't looked. My local synagogues have written open letters to papers for decades. Decades. They use their personal influence in many ways.
They live here, not in Israel.
Many Jewish leaders have been speaking out very urgently against Netanyahu's actions.
At a high school graduation I attended last year the valedictorian - who stated that he is Jewish - spoke out forcefully against Israel's actions.
It's simply incorrect to state that Jewish people in the U.S. aren't speaking out. Many Israelis are as well. Google News reports and you can read about it. Some of the people Hamas murdered and tortured were attending a protest for peace.
Exp
(597 posts)yardwork
(68,154 posts)Who do you think has been participating in all these pro-Palestinian protests? A whole bunch of Jewish people - when they're not bring chased away by antisemitic jerks.
Second, why should Jewish people, specifically, be held to a different standard? American Jews live in the U.S., not Israel. Why are they responsible for the policies of another country?
The U.S. is a majority-Christian nation. Are Christian people in other nations obligated to participate in protests against what Trump is doing? Many of them already are, by the way. I witnessed that in France in June. But are they
It's only Jewish people who are held to this ridiculous standard. I don't have any Jewish ancestry and I see it clearly.
Knock it off. It undermines everything else you're trying to do.
Exp
(597 posts)have eyes and ears.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Outed by Canary Mission...
I look forward to seeing more Jewish voices here decrying this.
enid602
(9,541 posts)Or at least some.
A poll found that 82% of full citizens of Israel want to expel Palestinians from Gaza. 47% want to kill every single man, woman, and child in Gaza. I'd change your adjective "many" to "some" or even "a few".
The survey was conducted in March by Israeli scholar Tamir Sorek, a professor at Pennsylvania State University. He worked with the Israeli polling firm Geocartography Knowledge Group.
A second poll from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem in early June found "An overwhelming majority of Jewish Israelis agree with the idea of there being “no innocents in Gaza.” 64% of the Israeli public agree with this statement, almost two out of three people. But it is actually considerably higher among Jewish Israelis, because that number is weighted by Palestinians with Israeli citizenship"
travelingthrulife
(3,370 posts)Until the people in the region end their bigotry against each other, this will never stop. They are keeping hatred alive for centuries over ancient tribal grudges.
OrangeJoe
(536 posts)Before the establishment of the state of Israel there was not nearly the violence and hate in the region.
LeftInTX
(34,006 posts)
My grandmother was deported and resided in the Golan Heights for awhile. They were treated shitty, but risked their lives to sneak on Arabs' property to eat camels that died of disease because Arabs wouldn't eat them since they weren't Halal.
And more recently, without involvement with Israel
Syrian mass graves expose "machinery of death" under Assad, top prosecutor says
Not seen anything like this since the Nazis, Rapp says
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/syrian-mass-graves-expose-machinery-death-under-assad-top-prosecutor-says-2024-12-17/
The region has always been tribal. Sadly the liberal westernized Ashkenazi's are dying off and it's the Mazrahis who are now the majority population. They came from the Middle East. (Mainly Arab states and Iran) Although Bibi is Ashkenazi the people who put him in power speak Arabic (but they're Jewish). They gave him the nickname "Bibi", which is short for habibi. The guy who killed the Rabin was a Yemenite Jew. Some of the worst people in Netanyahu's regime are Mazrahi.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Horrible.
OrangeJoe
(536 posts)Pulling Armenia into this is stretching things a bit. My comment was centered on the fact that historically there wasn't nearly as much the violence in Palestine between Jews & Arabs before 1948. Now is everybody there a bunch of peace loving hippies chanting the words "Give peace a chance", far from it, but the systematic theft of land, denial of human rights, crop destruction, murder and now genocide through starvation, that's all new.
To your statement about the Mazrahis I don't really know the actual breakdown in Israel. The google says it's about 50/50. All I know is there are a heck of a lot of settlers from Europe and the USA kicking Palestinians out of their homes all over the West Bank. I saw and listened to them when I was there (can't say I talked to them because none of them are what you would call a polite listener.)
LeftInTX
(34,006 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 29, 2025, 02:07 PM - Edit history (4)
My family was from South Central Turkey. (Not too far from Kayseri and Adana) The majority of Armenians lived in Eastern Turkey. Where Armenia is today, was Russia during WWI. Before it was part of Russia, it was part of Iran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Armenia_(1502%E2%80%931828)
Like Jews, Armenians didn't have a homeland, so the Soviets created one for them and Armenians immigrated to Soviet Armenia.
2000 years ago, the Armenian Empire spanned from Syria through Anatolia to Armenia. The Kingdom of Armenia didn't last very long. Around 500 AD, it taken over by the Persians and Byzantines. Since 500 AD, Armenians have been ethnic minorities in what would become Turkey, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Israel.
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There is alot of info about politics and Mizrahi Jews in Israel.
Mizrahi Jews constitute one of the largest Jewish ethnic divisions among Israeli Jews. Mizrahi Jews are descended from Jews who lived in West Asia, Central Asia, North Africa and parts of the North Caucasus, who had lived for many generations under Muslim rule during the Middle Ages. The vast majority of them left the Muslim-majority countries during the Arab–Israeli conflict, in what is known as the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries. A 2018 statistic found that 45% of Jewish Israelis identified as either Mizrahi or Sephardic.[1]
The first identifiable Mizrahi politics was on the left, and arose in response to the marginalization of Mizrahim within Israeli society. It was shaped by the Rainbow Alliance and the Israeli Black Panthers, explicitly inspired by the American Black Panthers. However, beginning in the 1970s, Mizrahi allegiances began to shift rightward. Today, the Ashkenazi vote is associated with left-wing, secular and centrist parties (especially Blue and White, Meretz, Kadima and historically Labour),[22] and the majority of Mizrahim vote for right-wing parties, especially Likud, as well as the Mizrahi-oriented splinter party Shas.[23][24]
Mizrahim were a crucial pillar of Likud since its founding in the 1970s,[23] even though the party leadership was dominated by Ashkenazim at first. Despite the increasing dominance of Mizrahi political articulation within Likud and its reliance on Mizrahi votes, there has not yet been a Mizrahi prime minister of Israel.[24] The rightward shift of Mizrahi politics started with early Likud leader Menachem Begin enthusiastically making overtures to the community, though not Mizrahi himself.[25] However, the association of Ashkenazim with the left and Mizrahim with the right was not yet fully crystallized at that time; it sharpened considerably beginning in 1980.[24]
Mizrahim have become the core of support for Benjamin Netanyahu, who is known for championing Mizrahi causes.[23] The rise of Likud from 1977 onward is nearly "universally" attributed to shifts among Mizrahi voters.[26] By May 1977, the share of Mizrahim in the party's Central Committee grew from 10% to 50%.[11] Meir Kahane's far-right Kach party as it emerged in the 1980s which called for the transfer of Arabs also won most of its support in economically depressed areas that tended to be Mizrahi, which Peled argues is best explained by labor market rivalries between Mizrahim and Arabs.[27] The robustness of support among Mizrahi Israelis for Netanyahu has been credited for his political survival despite a string of scandals, court investigations, and very close elections.[23] Likud's electoral success in 2020 has hinged on turnout in its strongholds in Beersheba and a string of northern towns [/b]inhabited by Mizrahim,[23] while in 2015 likewise Likud was carried to victory by a wave of turnout in working-class, predominantly Mizrahi "development towns", and because this occurred in response to Netanyahu's warning about Arab voters coming out in "droves",[24] it led to a low level wave of ethnic tensions, with mutual accusations of racism between left-wing Ashkenazi figures and their right-wing Mizrahi counterparts. Nevertheless, the Mizrahi vote for Likud has not always been fixed, and in 1992 Labor's victory is attributed in a large part to flipping Mizrahi former Likud voters.[26]
Whereas Ashkenazi prominence on the left has historically been associated with socialist ideals that had emerged in Central Europe and the kibbutz and Labor Zionist movement, the Mizrahim, as they rose in society and they developed their political ideals, often rejected ideologies they associated with an "Ashkenazi elite" that had marginalized them. Although these tensions were initially based on economic rivalries, the distinction remained strong even as Mizrahim increasingly moved up the socioeconomic ladder around 1990, entering the middle class, and the disparity between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim diminished (but did not completely disappear), with Mizrahi political expression becoming increasingly linked to the Likud and Shas parties. Likud, the largest right-wing party in Israel, became increasingly influenced by Mizrahi political articulation,[15] with the Mizrahi middle class' political coming-of-age held by political science commentators to be embodied by the rise of Mizrahi Likud politicians such as Moshe Kahlon[11] and Miri Regev.[28]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel
The Armenian genocide didn't happen in Armenia. It happened in Turkey, which was the capital of the Ottoman Empire.
The Middle East has always been a hotbed. Turkey, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia....take your pick!
OrangeJoe
(536 posts)Thanks for the essential history lesson. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of Americans have no idea about any of this. My original comment questioned the statement that "many" Israelis and Jews worldwide oppose the current government policies in Gaza. I cited a couple of polls and surveys (there are many more) that illustrated that the majority of Israelis are fine with removing (with their definition of removal taking in all meanings of the word) every Palestinian from Gaza and even the West Bank. Nothing anyone wrote on this thread disputed that point.
LeftInTX
(34,006 posts)I trust their pollsters and doubt they are connected to Netanyahu.
Israelis themselves live in constant fear, even though many of them protest Netanyahu. They protest him for numerous reasons, not related to Gaza.
My husband's nephew is Jewish. His mother was non-practicing, but a spark was lit and he got into Judaism and spent quite a bit of time over there. Now he won't go. Fortunately, he's also Latino, and he doesn't tell anyone here that he's Jewish. He used to talk about it alot and was excited about going there. He says it's so dangerous that Israel does not stamp passports. (This was even before Oct 2023) He was considering dual citizenship, but now feels it would make him a target. He lives in fear and he's really just an average guy living in San Antonio with a Latino surname who looks Latino enough that no one would think he's Jewish. He used to wear a yarmulke, but now he's afraid to wear it.
LeftInTX
(34,006 posts)brush
(61,033 posts)after 'Jewish state' for many is 'Jewish only', even though that thought is immediately self-suppressed out of shame of such antisemitism by many. In others there's no such suppression but an envisioning of an expanded Israel in the future, despite the fact that the area is also the homeland of the Arabs there.
Perhaps the establishment of the state and the whole notion of the 'right of return' was an intrusion to the Muslims who never left, and a hint of what was planned for the future.
Just return already from the horrors of WWII and the closed ports after the war. No imposition and the horro of Nakba expulsion on the inhabitant there.
Return, integrate into the land and get on with life.
Hard to hear all right, but nearly 80 years of continuing wars wth no end in sight and visiting the violence of the past onto others...not good.
Even when pedophile trump and warmonger Netanyahu are gone, there's no guarantee of peace as there has been so much violence in the past that won't be forgotten. Grievances on both sides will remain.
LeftInTX
(34,006 posts)None of the Arab states accepted Israel. None of them.
Gaza was part of Egypt when Egypt attacked Israel. West Bank was part of Jordan. Israel won the war and won Gaza, although they didn't know what to do with it. Israel could have annexed the West Bank, but allowed Jordan to keep it. King Hussein finally got fed up with terrorists and released the West Bank to Israel in 1988.
Ironically most of the original terrorists weren't Muslims, they were Christians. Sirhan Sirhan was a Christian and cited Israel as motivation to kill Bobby Kennedy.
This is an informative article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39960461
brush
(61,033 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2025, 12:22 AM - Edit history (2)
integration into the land witn no inference of a Jews-only state could've spare the world of nearly 80 years of continuous war.
I mean it was an intrusion onto the inhabitants there. What if Hindus had the backng of Russa and Red China and tried to establish a Hindu state in Washington. it would not be welcomed wiith open arms.
Many don't view it from the perspective of the Muslim point of vew who didn't and still con't think it was fair.
Maybe a carve out of part of defeated Germany/Austria where the WWll horrors happened would've been more appropriate and fair.
All water under the bridge now though.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)Just as I would not trust any poll that Trump's administration conducts.
OrangeJoe
(536 posts)Neither of the polls I cited have any connection whatsoever with the Netanyahu administration or the government of Israel. These are well regarded independent polls and educational institutions.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)I hear this Israeli polling firm is totally independent. So which is it?
OrangeJoe
(536 posts)Of course no leader has "everyone" on board with them. In fact there are courageous Israelis and Jews in other nations who are appalled by the action s of the IDF and Netanyahu. Given the anti-semitism Jews have faced for centuries they are indeed heroic individuals. But the fact remains that a hefty majority of Israelis are absolutely fine with ethnic cleansing even to the point of genocide. It's disgusting and doubly so as the US taxpayer is footing much of the financial cost as well as political goodwill by backing the state of Israel.
KT2000
(21,731 posts)is now responsible for very heinous acts. I too have a problem reconciling this with what I know of history.
Humans are humans. Fighting "the Other" started when the second creature crawled out of the primordial ooze. Which doesn't make it right, it just makes it a fact.
Dan
(4,903 posts)
iemanja
(56,824 posts)That’s your approach to mass starvation? And you dare ask why Israel should be held accountable for its actions? Liberals are supposed to care about other human beings, not dismiss 2 million lives as inconsequential. One can either speak out against genocide or be complicit in it.
Duncanpup
(15,198 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2025, 07:24 PM - Edit history (1)
Our $40 billion in Welfare allows Israel to subsidize.
Health care
Universities
GENOCIDE in Gaza.
And here at home we have to tell grandma no cash for meals on wheels.
William Gustafson
(510 posts)Response to William Gustafson (Reply #124)
Rebl2 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)No, the US does not directly fund abortions in Israel. A long-standing US policy, often referred to as the Hyde Amendment, prohibits the use of US foreign aid money for abortion services. This amendment has been in place for decades and is supported by both pro-life and pro-Israel groups. While Israel does have a system where abortions are generally covered by the public health system, this is not funded by the US.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=does+the+US+pay+for+abortions+in+Israel
Now this misinformation is going to be repeated by people who don't check.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)We need to stop the billions we are spending on ICE.
We need to stop Trump's horrific border policies.
If we had elected Kamala Harris and a majority of Democrats to Congress we wouldn't be "supporting" all these terrible things. A majority of U.S. voters supported Trump.
Are we all to blame for that? Why are Jewish people uniquely to blame?
And aid to Israel has nothing to do with cutting medical care and social services to the poor and elderly. We can easily do that but WE (the majority of US voters) choose not to.
brush
(61,033 posts)I contend in fact that the attacks on synagogues and Jewish events here and in other countres, unfortunately are negative reactions connected to the war crimes going on in Gaza.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)It is the opposite of what we saw regarding Muslims post 9-11
JoseBalow
(8,507 posts)brush
(61,033 posts)that he is not kicked to the curb despite his known corruption at home.
Given massive protests against him in Israel, he still persists with the war crimes.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)But it evades the question of why antisemitism is a natural consequence of his actions.
Antisemitism is seen as “understandable” (a description I have seen on DU) whereas Islamophobia is opposed.
Both should be intolerable.
brush
(61,033 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2025, 11:28 PM - Edit history (2)
Netanyahu in his war crimes against Muslims/Arabs. If the US supplied weapons to both sides, there would be "mutually assured destruction" as there is in the stand off in the nuclear arena.
What it seems though is Israel is the designated watch/attack dog of the US and western powers over the oil region in the ME and is therefore supplied with much superior weapons than what the Arab nations have...air superiority and all the rest...intimidation.
IMO, that's how it stands.
cliffside
(1,369 posts)Mossfern
(4,388 posts)Are you saying that there's a rise in antisemitism in the US because the US supplies munitions to Israel?
Is the US now a Jewish nation?
brush
(61,033 posts)See my post 12 also.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)Look at a map of the Middle East.
Israel is a tiny nation surrounded by huge, incredibly wealthy Arab states. And by the way, most of those wealthy, powerful Arab nations are ruled by authoritarian monarchies or religious fanatics.
Israel, in contrast, is a democracy with a constitution that guarantees rights to non-Jewish people. Their democracy elected a madman. It sucks. Same here.
The internet: The estimated global Jewish population is approximately 15.8 million people. This represents less than 0.2% of the world's total population of 8 billion. The majority of Jewish people live in two countries: Israel and the United States.
Guess how many Muslims there s a re in the world? Around 2 BILLION. 25% of the world's population.
We give aid to Israel because otherwise their wealthy powerful neighbors would blow them to smithereens.
And do you ever ask yourself why those wealthy powerful Muslim Arab neighbors don't rescue the people living in Gaza?
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)With a little nudge in the direction of demonization of Palestinians and Muslims thrown in at the end. That's not right. But if you actually want to know the answer, look up the definition of ethnic cleansing and think about it.
Just who has been doing the "blowing to smithereens" - also invading, oppressing, occupying, ever-expanding and confiscating/annexing land?
As for the rest. Israel is the Goliath with a shield that prevents deterrence. So it can go on monstrous rampages on its neighbours and those it occupies with impunity and no consequences. No demographic or other stats or the rest of the talking points are gonna help people unsee that now.
Honestly, when are people going to see beyond the talking points propaganda and start thinking for themselves?
yardwork
(68,154 posts)Be specific. What did I post that isn't factually true?
brush
(61,033 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2025, 07:01 PM - Edit history (1)
to perform it's designated watch/attack dog function over the ME for the US and western powers. It's not that complicated, the strategy works.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)Israel's enemies do. If Saudi Arabia doesn't outspend Israel, it's because they choose not to do so.
brush
(61,033 posts)Israel. doesn't need. oil wealth, It's got the wealth and complicity of the US and the other western powers who supply then with the killing weapons.
The world is watching.
yardwork
(68,154 posts)brush
(61,033 posts)yardwork
(68,154 posts)When terrorist attacks begin against the U.S. and even Christian people living in other countries, will you shrug and justify it as an "understandable" consequence of Trump's actions?
Do you say that all Christians are responsible for Trump's actions?
I doubt it. This standard is only held against Jewish people.
brush
(61,033 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2025, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)
BadgerMom
(3,329 posts)that 9/11 was blamed on Al Qaeda, not an elected government. The Saudis supported Bin Laden’s work not-so-surreptitiously, but surreptitiously enough to give the royal family cover. Israel is a democracy that could hold Netanyahu to account. It has not.
And, believe me, I’m not throwing stones here. Not only has Trump not been held to account, our Supreme Court has torn asunder the Constitution to protect the felonious child molester.
I don’t know if this is the reason Islam was viewed separately, but it could be. Israel is a nation. Islam is a religion.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)But it is often (if not always) conflated with Israel. Non-Israeli Jews are seen as complicit regardless of their connection or lack thereof.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)It should not be hard to see that there are consequences to such conflation that are harmful to diaspora Jews.
Israel wants to have its cake and eat it too. Non-Israeli Jews really should look at their unwavering support for Israel in face of its horrible actions. Israel-right-or-wrong is just plain wrong.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Is that a fact based on evidence or is it one of those things that “everyone” just knows?
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)It was unwavering support for Israel. Throughout the shredding and mutilation of children and adults alike, the periodic starvation, the relentless destruction. It is only now one or two have spoken out.
Had there been a groundswell of revulsion and dissent in the Jewish community, we would have known. There was none. It was Israel all the way, right or wrong.
It would have made all the difference, whether people will admit it or not.
The thing is I do understand why there was either silence or vociferous defence of Israel, but I can't condone it. It was wrong.
Here is an article that resonated with me about Jewish leaders' silence. Like the letter a few days ago from 4 rabbis, 3 American and one Israeli.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/gaza-is-starving-where-are-the-american-jewish-leaders/ar-AA1J9Uop
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)When it was emphasized how many Jews and Jewish organizations joined the protests. Then there were many, now not one.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)sarisataka
(22,017 posts)To “mainstream leaders”.
LOL indeed
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)American Jews support Israel publicly. We saw that in microcosm here on DU. Every action of Israel, no matter how heinous to Palestinians, was defended, excused, justified, rationalized.
And you're asking ME to prove that statement of unwavering support? I fought it for 22 excruciating months, including with you!
There are not enough lol s in the world...
Good night.
vanessa_ca
(570 posts)We worked hard to make our voices heard on the streets and at protests supporting Palestine. Mainstream organizations pretending to represent us are having a major issue with younger Jews not falling for their crap.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)I did know that, but forgot. Thanks for reminding me.
In the article I linked to in this sub-thread, from The Forward, it says that the reaction of mainstream Jewish orgs to the rebellion of the youth, is to double down. Not surprising, it's the usual establishment reaction. You have quite a fight ahead of you, wish you well!
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)Really?
There are people here who believe that Israel can do no wrong?
Have they actually said that?
Violet_Crumble
(36,356 posts)Elsewhere in this thread you insist that supporters of Israel don't need to speak out against the starvation and slaughter in Gaza because not speaking out doesn't mean people support what's happening. So what makes this different? Why do people need to come out and state that they believe Israel can do no wrong for you to believe that there's people who support everything Israel does?
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)And I don't claim that when people don't speak out against Hamas' atrocities that they support Hamas.
I never ever ever said that people who support Israel need to say that they believe that Israel can do no wrong.
I just haven't come across anyone here who impresses me that they believe that. I don't demand that they "confess."
You are right - I think that supporters of Israel do not need to prove that they don't agree with Israel's actions here on this platform - I don't think we have a 'purity' test here on DU for any stance regarding Israel/Palestine issues. However I have seen that some people here infer that people who support Israel also agree with Netanyahu and Likud's actions and policies unless they publicly denounce them - here. That supporters of Israel are to be judged and need to display that they are indeed "good people", and if they don't recite that act of faith, they support the starvation and genocide of Palestinians.
Ridiculous
Violet_Crumble
(36,356 posts)But first, let's clear something up. This is the comment you were responding to:'We saw that in microcosm here on DU. Every action of Israel, no matter how heinous to Palestinians, was defended, excused, justified, rationalized.'
Yr response to that was: '*Every* action? Really?There are people here who believe that Israel can do no wrong? Have they actually said that?'
So, yes, you do appear to be saying that if they haven't said they support everything Israel does, then such attitudes don't exist. Apologies if I misunderstood what you were trying to say, but that's how it came across to me.
You say you haven't seen anyone here who gives you the impression they support and defend everything Israel does? Then clearly you aren't reading the same threads many other DUers are, because they're easy to find. And here we arrive at 'purity tests' and demanding people confess. Do you view the following example as demanding someone confess?
Example: An article gets posted about a young woman in the US who's attacked and assaulted by a bunch of pro-Israel folk. A hypothetical pro-Israel person posts multiple times in the thread defending the people who assaulted her and blaming her for being there and getting in their path. Another person posts asking them if they support those who attacked her and noting that in multiple posts they've not once shown any opposition to what happened. Do you consider that to be an example of demanding people confess?
I have also seen some people here infer what you say. I have also seen some people infer the same about those who speak out against the actions of Israel. I've lost count of the times where I've seen posts in threads about, for example, Palestinians being attacked and killed by Hamas where people make comments like 'where are the usual suspects' or '**crickets**' etc. It happens on all fronts. I saw you accused of supporting genocide, which I know from reading some of yr posts isn't true. I've been accusing of supporting Hamas, being antisemitic, loving terrorists, and at first it bothered me, but now it's water off a duck back.
I could dribble on for a while longer and get even more boring than I just was, but got an appt to go to so yr off the hook 
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)I think I've found a person who worse at analogies than I am!
(all in good fun) I hope it's an appointment that you enjoy.
electric_blue68
(24,042 posts)whether Secular/Culteral, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox.
So guilt by association?
Glad to have seen over the year+ Anti-Netanyahu demonstrations over there. As some people have said; he's still there. Is it at least partly Palimentary complexities?
An (in person) Jewish friend of mine has sent me current Gaza children's devastating photos . So there are outraged Jews here at Netanyahu's extreme actions even in the face of the heinious Oct 7 atrocities.
mcar
(45,381 posts)any terrorist actions by Muslims and Islamic states?
electric_blue68
(24,042 posts)responsible for certain extreme actions. The extension of this war, attacking food distribution sites, certain IDF soldiers deliberately shooting at kids, and the general starving of little kids!
While I don't think it's up to the level of genocide, nor will I call it a holocaust (I suppose here come the brick bats in my direction); it is hedious, and heinious behaviors/actions/non-actions from Netanyahu, and his most RW governmental people and civilian sipporters.
And while there are many Islamic States there is only one Jewish State - like I said a a possible overarching ?narrative, ?zeitgeist that as Holocaust victims/descendents Israel should hold itself to a high, maybe higher standard.
Yes, I believe Israel has a right to exist since at least a certain amount of Jews remained in that area. Although I've fleetingly read that Ben Gureon may have been against the Jews creating a Jewish State in the ME.
Bettie
(18,912 posts)and, in a recent poll, most of them are supportive of all of what is happening. There are regular attacks by settlers on Palestinian villages in the West Bank.
I don't agree that all Jews worldwide need to be held responsible, but if you support people being killed for the crime of....checks notes....attempting to access food at a relief site or living in your home in the West Bank, well, you probably aren't one of the good guys.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Nor do they all support killing of people trying to reach food. Yet I have seen it said that “ US Jews need to use their influence with Netanyahu” to change Israel’s actions in Gaza.
It seems Jewish people are believed to have a unique influence/responsibility for the country that the majority share their religion.
Bettie
(18,912 posts)and those of my family members and friends.
But there is a small contingent on DU who defend any and everything Israel does. They expose themselves. I don’t think all of them are Jews, but whoever defends the current situation in Gaza deserves scorn.
TomSlick
(12,739 posts)attacks on Jews around the world are a consequence of Israel's actions.
It doesn't help that Israel purports to represent the interests of Jews world-wide It also doesn't help the Jews outside of Israel attack any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic, thereby seeming to prove Israel's claim that it represents Jews world wide.
The power of AIPAC reinforces the notion that Israel represents the interests of Jews in the US.
Until Jews living outside of Israel condemn the genocide being conducted by Israel, there will be no space seen between the actions of Israel and Jews around the world.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)And a singular demand of a people to avoid facing a collective responsibility.
TomSlick
(12,739 posts)Israel creates the cause by claiming to represent all Jews world-wide. Jews in the US enforce the idea by their support of AIPAC and the apparent unquestioning support of Israel. The cause and effect cycle will only be broken when Jews outside of Israel demand that their countries hold Israel to international standards.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)It sounds like Jews bring antisemitism upon themselves.
Is this saying Jews need to prove they are loyal to their current country and that they do not also have loyalty to Israel?
TomSlick
(12,739 posts)The current increase in antisemitism world-wide is a result of Israel being a rogue criminal state and the assumption that Israel is correct when it claims to speak for all Jews world-wide.
My assumption has been that US Jews owed their loyalty to the US. You seem to be suggesting that I was wrong suggesting that American Jews owe a duty loyalty to the both the US and Israel. If so, is one superior to the other?
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)mcar
(45,381 posts)Attacks against Jews now is equally as wrong. Why is it so hard to say that?
TomSlick
(12,739 posts)Is it had to say that the current Israeli government is engaged in genocide?
Eko
(9,701 posts)sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Opposing those who wanted to blame all Muslims.
Eko
(9,701 posts)sarisataka
(22,017 posts)I see more tacit acceptance. More that Jews should expect to be held accountable for the actions of Israel unless they prove they have no hidden loyalty to Israel
Eko
(9,701 posts)VS how many have?
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Also I am not limiting my scope to elected party members
Eko
(9,701 posts)Is it something that has metrics?
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Without any “but”s, “what about” or other qualifiers.
I freely admit it is anecdotal rather than empirical but it is obvious enough that I am confident in my opinion.
Eko
(9,701 posts)Adding a qualifier to it would not negate that. There seems to be some different ideas on what counts as antisemitism seeing as how a new definition is going around so perhaps some of what you are seeing is disagreement with that.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)But too many counter antisemitism directed against Jews outside of Israel with comparisons to Gaza or the actions of the Israeli government. It is wrong, IMO to in any way claim antisemitic words or acts are justified by anything happening in the Middle East.
Also I can agree the definition of antisemitism is sometimes stretched to include criticism of the government of Israel. That too is wrong, attempting to stifle what may be valid criticism.
Eko
(9,701 posts)I think one is correct in saying that, just like saying racists would be upset if a black man killed a white person. That in no way says that antisemitism or racism is ok, just that people who are like that would get upset more.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)"Until Jews living outside of Israel condemn the genocide being conducted by Israel, there will be no space seen between the actions of Israel and Jews around the world."
Exactly, but I would say no space between Israel and Jews around the world. That's the conflation. That becomes problematic when the ACTIONS of Israel deserve universal condemnation. When all except diaspora Jews (and of course fundies, magas etc) condemn Israel, are outraged by its actions, then the notion of complicity comes into play. Belief in complicity plus the conflation created by Israel itself, is a bad combination for diaspora Jews.
iemanja
(56,824 posts)I’ve read a few articles and seen interviews with Jews who denounce the genocide in Gaza. But many defend it. I think it’s important not to blame all Jews. Each of us, Jew or otherwise, has a responsibility to speak out against this genocide. Let each person make their own views known. I should also add that Jews are far from alone in enabling genocide. We see many bad people defend this who are not Jewish.
Israel, of course, bears ultimate responsibility, but the US pays for it.
EdmondDantes_
(948 posts)There should always be a distinction between Israel and Jewish people as a whole. And between individual Israelis and their government. That one can get tricky as people (including me) tend to shorthand Israel for the Israeli government.
erodriguez
(911 posts)The US and Americans as a whole have lost status in the world because the majority supported a maniac named Trump.
Exp
(597 posts)
We must have different memories of post 9-11.
I recall a LOT of anti-Muslim sentiment after 9-11.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5055770/
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)And I recall the reminders that not all Muslim’s support terrorism.
Yet we see here there is a belief that all Jews support Israel. It seems antisemitism is viewed as a natural occurrence resulting from the actions of Israel. That view overlooks the fact that antisemitism predates modern Israel by millennia.
mcar
(45,381 posts)of their leaders?
Bit of a double standard, hmm?
Eko
(9,701 posts)I mean, they are being killed for the actions of their government in large numbers. Is there somehow a way to hold them more responsible than killing them for it?
erodriguez
(911 posts)There people are starved. They are being maligned by right wingers in this country
I'd say they are facing much greater consequences than the average Israeli.
thought crime
(812 posts)A violation of Human Rights. And the far right in the US is cheering it on.
mike_c
(36,767 posts)...focusing the issue on Jewish people in general rather than about the nation's crimes against humanity. This is just plain dishonest. I wonder whether starving children to death or using food as bait to lure people into kill zones is therefore PRO-semetic.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Justify antisemitism against non-Israeli Jews?
Is antisemitism inevitable because of Israel?
mike_c
(36,767 posts)I think people who are already antisemitic will certainly try to find justification in current events, and unfortunately there is lots of that. It's clear that there are many actual antisemitic people, and it seems to me that Israel is working hard to live up to their disdain.
I also think automatically conflating criticism of Israel with antisemitism is tantamount to telling people of good conscience to "sit down and shut up," because it steals away their agency. Israel (the state) might not want to hear what we have to say, but taking our voices away with insulting comparisons to racism simply angers people even more.
Lonestarblue
(12,949 posts)yardwork
(68,154 posts)See how that works?
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Because my query was about Jews not about Israelis. Or are those synonymous?
yardwork
(68,154 posts)Only cretins blamed Muslim Arabs as a group for October 7.
After 9/11 only cretins blamed Muslims as a group.
Nobody who was not a cretin asked why Muslim Americans weren't speaking out against 9/11 "in an organized way, with signs"
Jewish people are singled out for blame in a unique way that has obvious historical precedents.
It's hatred against Jewish people, pure and simple.
EllieBC
(3,563 posts)for attacks in :
9/11, Indonesia, India, Spain, UK, and France?
Also for the uptick in sexual assaults in Germany, UK, France, and the Scandinavian countries?
brush
(61,033 posts)EllieBC
(3,563 posts)shaming. Pretty certain at least 1/2 this forum would have pearl clutched until they passed out had anyone ever suggested that about Muslims.
If you think hurting Jews in North America is just desserts you are just as bad as the MAGAts that hate Muslims.
Eko
(9,701 posts)I think Brush is saying that when something bad happens some people tend to add blame to those who are of the same race, religion, creed or political party. Not that it is correct in any way but that is what some people do.
mcar
(45,381 posts)and other "liberals" who are saying that.
Eko
(9,701 posts)If you would like to link to those other people on here saying that then we can further this conversation in the direction you are pushing, until then Brush did not say that.
brush
(61,033 posts)going on in Gaza.
snot
(11,307 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2025, 08:23 PM - Edit history (1)
Warning: not safe for the compassionately-hearted: http://tiny.cc/s8dq001
(Not sure why the image isn't showing, but you can see it at either link.)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/06/israel-gaza-starvation-hunger-icc-netanyahu/
See more photos at https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gaza-children-starving-death-droves-35596814 .
A doctor checks on Jana Ayad, a malnourished Palestinian girl, at the International Medical Corps field hospital in the Deir al-Balah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip last month. (Mohammed Salem/Reuters)
snot
(11,307 posts)I fear that Israel has done more to stoke anti-semitism in the last year than anyone else since Hitler.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)Mossfern
(4,388 posts)American Jews who are politically liberal have it twice as hard.
We are fighting the right wing both here and in Israel.
Yet it's all our fault ......
Eko
(9,701 posts)"unfortunately are negative reactions connected to the war crimes going on in Gaza."
If I said a racist would have negative reactions to a black person killing a white person I am not saying that it is understandable that the racist would get upset, am I?
it's brought up EVERY FUCKING TIME THOUGH
VERY TIRESOME INDEED
Vthestate
(38 posts)....Can anyone scream antisemitic and be believed.....or could the phrase be a lever to divide us
erodriguez
(911 posts)That's another reason why lots of the world hate us.
The US always murders brown people, foreign or domestic.
snot
(11,307 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2025, 09:18 PM - Edit history (5)
I absolutely reject guilt by association; but I'd say that Israelis who have access to the truth about what's going on and who continue to support it do bear some responsibility, just as U.S. citizens who have access to the truth and nonetheless continue to support officials who continue to provide military support to Israel bear some responsibility.
My point was just that rightly or wrongly, Jewish people in general are probably going to encounter a lot more blowback as a result of Israel's actions.
B.t.w., I'm grateful for the many Jews who have stood up and protested against what's happening in Gaza.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)But European and US Jews who are attacked verbally or physically because of the actions of Israel.
I have seen it described here as “understandable”
Cha
(314,663 posts)savage, and Stupid.
And, it's Not helping Gaza a GD bit. Nether was the "Uncommitted" and "Leave It Blank" Shit..
And, this Shite for brains, Amer Ghalib, didn't help a Dann bit. 
Democratic Muslim Mayor Backs Trump in Key Swing State
https://www.newsweek.com/democratic-muslim-mayor-trump-swing-state-1957674
mcar
(45,381 posts)there are many posts saying or implying that antisemitism is understandable because... Netanyahu.
But none will make that same case re Hamas and Islamic terrorists.
Stargleamer
(2,513 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2025, 07:41 PM - Edit history (1)
Netanyahu's actions added accelerants to the fires of antisemitism, due to the tendency of many people to overgeneralize the actions and characteristics of some Jews to apply to Jews as a whole. An increased and expansive hatred results. This result could easily have been predicted.
As for Islamic terrorists, well, my guess is you yourself saw how much anti-Muslim hatred increased and played out in this country immediately after 9/11. Sikhs were even attacked in this country as well as Muslims because some thought the turbans Sikhs wore meant that they were Muslim. This result too was quite predictable.
It is "understandable" in the sense that this kind of short-circuited, knee-jerk thinking among people is common everywhere, and we've encountered it numerous times in our lives. When Herschel Grynszpan, a Jewish expatriate, killed Ernst vom Roth in 1938, the Nazis used this as a pre-text to start Kristallnacht--a lot of Germans didn't need much convincing that their antisemitism need to be ramped up a notch, to think of all Jews as treacherous or even murderous, as they thought of Grynszpan that way.
mcar
(45,381 posts)As for Islamic terrorists, well, my guess is you yourself saw how much anti-Muslim hatred increased and played out in this country immediately after 9/11. Sikhs were even attacked in this country as well as Muslims because some thought the turbans Sikhs wore meant that they were Muslim. This result too was quite predictable.
Stargleamer
(2,513 posts)it was understandable in the sense that he would expect anti-Muslim hate in the event of a terrorist attack sponsored by an Islamic group. That's all he meant by "understandable"--blowback is to be expected. Outside of his response, I didn't see any other posters here in this thread saying that they understood antisemitism or anti-Muslim hatred.
But even if I did, saying I understand hatred isn't the same as saying I condone it. I can understand the pent-up anger that propelled the 10/7 attack, and I can understand the vicious ongoing response by the IDF in reply to this attack, but I don't condone either.
mcar
(45,381 posts)What happened was an international campaign of hate towards Jews.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)On October 8th; it happened in many cities around the world. In NYC thousands cheered Hamas "great victory", particularly praising the attack on the music festival. In other places there were chants of "gas the Jews"
mcar
(45,381 posts)The sheer volume of the celebrations and "protests" against Israel could not have been spontaneous.
JustAnotherGen
(37,121 posts)How many rank and file Muslims and Palestinians in America knew in advance what was going to happen. It was too well coordinated.
The Pogrom October 7 and the Cheering and Applause on October 8.
Chilling.
mcar
(45,381 posts)Violet_Crumble
(36,356 posts)Just change it to 'rank and file Jews in America' knew in advance that Bibi was going to starve Palestinian children and try to explain to me why it's not bigoted to say that about Muslims, yet it's ugly antisemitism to say something like that about American Jews.
Also, what's with the 'rank and file' crap? Do American Muslims sign up to a union type thing where they all call each other 'comrade' and get newsletters where they get spoilers about upcoming evil events hosted by Hamas? The only time I've been a rank and file anything is a union member. Please don't use that term to be so dismissive about a marginalised group in the US.
snot
(11,307 posts)but not acceptable.
electric_blue68
(24,042 posts)
DiverDave
(5,182 posts)The war crimes that a happening are so cruel that blowback is expected.
The problem I see is the divide of Isreal and jewish people.
I HATE what they are doing to children...CHILDREN.
Do I hate jews? No. The israeli government are committing war crimes.
It's astonishing to see what the government is doing, so soon after
The horrors of WW2.
There should be war crimes trials. But I don't think that will happen.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)A major terrorist attack by a group that identified as Muslim, would you say anything Islamophobia was understandable and such blowback is expected?
DiverDave
(5,182 posts)Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Of course there would be blowback.
We are human. Unfortunately, as humans, we are violent.
I wish we weren't.
I just think of those poor, starving children.
It hurts my heart to see what is happening there.
I feel the Israeli government has lost their humanity.
And this is how terrorists are born.
To subject the Palestinians to the same atrocities that was visited on them is
despicable.
And so short sighted.
whathehell
(30,272 posts)and his continued crimes in Gaza?
Eko
(9,701 posts)erodriguez
(911 posts)EllieBC
(3,563 posts)terror events? No? Why? You’ll lose popularity with people online?
snot
(11,307 posts)I abhor violence used in any case other than in defense against a demonstrably imminent attack.
mcar
(45,381 posts)
malaise
(289,591 posts)Rec
surfered
(9,482 posts)Are we creating more terrorists?
lees1975
(6,784 posts)Long history there. It wasn't the smoothest transition, even when Suliman the Magnificent began to allow Jewish settlers into Palestine after a 1,500 year absence, under Ottoman Rule. Who could have envisioned that the strong-armed tactics of the European imperial power that took over the Middle East and added it to its own territory and under its own rule eventually opening the door to much larger numbers of Jewish immigrants following the Second World War and the holocaust, displacing more than a million Palestinian Arabs, would lead to conflict and violence, the creation of terrorist groups from among the displaced, such as Hezbollah and Hamas, and a state of almost constant warfare?
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)by the Romans. Jewish people were native to the area, didn't "invade" but returned to their ancestral homeland.
As is said during Simchat Torah - we are all as if we stood at Sinai ourselves to receive the Commandments of the Creator.
One may argue the theology, but not the history.
whathehell
(30,272 posts)One could as easily ask "What about the Canaanite people who were expelled from 'Canaan' by the Hebrews after they left Egypt?
If you're going to go back 2,000 years, why not 3,000?...That's history too.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)Jews were present even then.
whathehell
(30,272 posts)I'm not sure that simple "presence" is what's at issue here.
I was merely addressing the insinuation that Jewish people were invading foreigners at the inception of the State of Israel.
Brenda
(1,819 posts)YES genocide of Palestinians and the total destruction of Gaza.
Stop killing innocent people!
Stop starving innocent people!
That's all I have to say regarding that.
Brenda
(1,819 posts)to my post. And then "That's all I have to say regarding that."
Uh huh.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)your post deserves IMHO.
Cha
(314,663 posts)
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)...displace the current inhabitants living there for a millennia by force, don't let them return, and claim it was not an invasion but an ancestral homecoming?
After all, we were kicked out of there too a millennia or two ago. Very unfair.
It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?
Except you will tell me why it's different for the Jewish people. I understand. But it was still wrong. Because it hurt another people! And now those people are being genocided by the "homecomers". That is very wrong too and should not have been defended for 22 months. Is that so hard to understand?
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)to what I was responding to. It has been claimed that the Jewish people were not original to the region - were "invaders."
You can argue the wisdom of the Balfour Declaration if you wish, but it was not the "fault" of the Jewish people.
ETA: What of the Jewish people who were expelled from Arab countries like Morocco and Tunisia whose lands were confiscated at the establishment of Israel. No problem with that?
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)The Middle Eastern Jews were expelled well AFTER the expulsion of Palestinians. As retaliation. Otherwise they would still be there.
And many went willingly, drawn by Zionism and Israel's enticement. See Magic Carpet ride.
But let's return to Gaza. I've been looking for your voice condemning the starvation.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)Really?
Do you think I condone starvation?
Why in the world would I need to justify myself to you or anyone here?
Please think about what you just said.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)I said:
I've been looking for your voice condemning the starvation.
I assumed that you despise the starvation as any decent person would.
Then why not join the growing chorus of voices condemning Israel for its policies and calling for an end to it?
You may not think it's a compliment, but in my mind you are the first person I can see who would do that. Because I see you as the most moderate, civil and reasonable. But I've been wrong many times before. Hope I'm not wrong now.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)but posting that on DU will not help feed Gazans - will it?
The work is in getting resources to starving people, not publicizing it.
I'll leave that to other people.
I don't think anyone here on DU - even the staunchest supporters of Israel - condones starving innocent civilians.
I believe that what Netanyahu's government is doing regarding this is reprehensible.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)I don't have standing.
There's statements and letters being circulated by rabbis and Jewish groups telling Israel to stop. You can add your name. Many other things too. Even here, people can jump in to a thread decrying Israel's actions and add their voices of dissent. It's not enough to say I despise Netanyahu, or it's reprehensible and only when pushed. Speak out in every forum, here and outside. Please.
And it's nice to work towards getting food to the starving - much more than most are doing - but it's actually so irrelevant and useless as to be almost a fig leaf for the conscience. It's like donating to the Food Bank, a kind gesture and it makes you feel good, but it doesn't address the root causes of hunger and in the end only perpetuates it. Because then government doesn't have to redistribute wealth in a more equitable way.
Israel won't stop the starvation, killing and ethnic cleansing until it is made to stop. And you can bet it cares about the opinion of American Jews for a number of reasons.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)It's right there on their website.
I won't link it because I don't think it's appropriate to jeopardize their privacy here.
Why do you assume that these things are not already being done?
They are already partnering with Palestinians.
It's kind of frustrating and quite frankly insulting that people assume that these things are not already being done.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)I only saw the silence or the defending for 22 months. By all mainstream Jewish leaders and orgs and here on DU by a majority.
I am glad yours is a more progressive, outspoken rabbi and synagogue. However, condemning Netanyahu's government is not the same as condemning its actions during the war.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)need to answer to you or anybody else on this forum?
Honestly - do you expect me to go into detail for you?
My mission is not to make you "glad" or garner your approval.
What you're doing is so frustrating that you are hurting your own cause.
This game of "Jump"....."How high?" is over.
Have a good day.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Bye.
Ping Tung
(3,757 posts)You know the ancient ancestors of both the Hebrews and Arabs.
History is little more than a list of people who stole other people's property. Voltaire
IbogaProject
(5,054 posts)There were a Judia and a Samara.
lees1975
(6,784 posts)The two Jewish kingdoms, after Solomon's kingdom split, were known as Judah, and Israel. Samaria was the capital city of Israel, separated from Temple worship which occurred in the smaller province of Judah.
In Roman times, the two Jewish provinces were small, known as Judea and Galilee. When Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE, the Jewish presence in what had been their homeland since the time of Moses, ended. The last independent Jewish state to exist in the region was under the Hasmonean Dynasty, which, even though influenced by the Romans prior to that time, ended around 63 BCE. There was not another one until 1948, when Israel emerged, backed by Britain and the United States.
IbogaProject
(5,054 posts)But it appears to be subject to debate, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)
There isn't strong evidence for an anchient kingdom of Israel. But I'm not well versed enough to debate further.
lees1975
(6,784 posts)If you want to keep going back, on a claim that the original inhabitants should be restored to their homeland, then the descendants of the Canaanite population that existed there when, according to the Old Testament narrative, the land was promised to Abraham and his descendants, should lay claim to the land.
And historically, it's a far reach to recognize the ownership of land by a nation conquered and exiled from it for over 1,500 years. That sets some precedents that Americans probably don't want to discuss or acknowledge.
The fact is that the Arabic population living there when the Balfour declaration was made have a longer history as the occupants and owners of the land that is now the nation of Israel, along with the West Bank and Gaza Strip, than any other people group who lived there, including the Jews.
I'm not saying that the Jewish population doesn't belong there, decisions have been made by world powers in modern times that have led us to this point. But all of that history, especially since 1946, has caused the violence and terrorism that has left the region in virtually constant warfare, and is the cause behind both October 7, and the retaliation occurring against Gaza. It was going to be a big problem moving in the bulk of the world's Jewish population to a land occupied by a majority Muslim and minority Christian population and it doesn't seem like much advanced planning was done to work for a solution that would have benefitted everyone, and not caused the displacement, poverty and violence that this did.
lees1975
(6,784 posts)I can't think of anywhere else in the world where a people group, exiled from their homeland by conquest in ancient times, have ever been restored to that homeland on top of the population that was there at the time, whose presence is also a fact of history.
The exiled Jewish population following the conquest and destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. was exposed to the conditions experienced by conquered, enslaved people under Roman rule for about 300 years, until Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. Then, all during the period of time from that point until the Eastern Roman Empire fell to the Muslims, they endured the persecution at the hands of both the Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches, which pushed many of them north, into Russia and Eastern Europe, most notably Poland and Ukraine. In the west, more persecution came along after the Protestant reformation, and in Eastern Europe, the complete separation of the Hassidic dynasties from the native population kept Jewish culture and religion alive.
Ironically, the influence of the Protestant Christian church, which had been among the most harsh and cruel persecutors of Jews, turned out to be the key to the support necessary for Palestine to be opened wide to Jewish immigration following the Holocaust. So, the influence of Christian theology that had developed in Victorian England and in the United States, regarding literalist interpretations of the book of Revelation, requiring a Jewish ruled state in Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy led the world powers to press the UN into opening the territory for Jewish immigration, and the bulk of the world's Jewish population headed there, except those in places where they felt secure, such as the United States and Great Britain. This combination of Protestant Christian influence of the western poltical powers is why Israel exists today. And it's why not much forethought was given as to what might happen if this occurred at a more rapid pace than it had since Suleiman began letting them back in in the 1600's.
So the western powers established the legitimacy of the state of Israel, which, as a result, has a right to exist, and they've intervened at various levels, and backed off at other times, as the violence moves to claim politicians in the western democracies.
thought crime
(812 posts)But it's kind of a good point. It's best not to act like the Romans, or for that matter the ancient Greeks. We're supposed to be better than that.
snot
(11,307 posts)Perhaps they couldn't, especially not in detail; but it should be obvious to all by now, at least in general terms.
(Yet we keep mucking about in other countries, toppling governments and replacing them with more capitalist exploitation-compliant dictators.)
vanessa_ca
(570 posts)It was dead set against recognizing Israel for that very reason. Truman went against their advice. In his memoirs, he wrote about the strong zionist pressure he was subjected to
I was later told that one of our U.S. mission staff men literally sat on the lap of the Cuban delegate to keep him from going to the podium to withdraw Cuba from the United Nations. In any event, about 6:15 I got a call from Secretary Marshall who said, “Rusk, get up to New York and prevent the U.S. delegation from resigning en masse.” Whether it was necessary or not, I scurried to New York and found that tempers had cooled sufficiently so that my mission was unnecessary.
As for Lovett, persuaded as ever that Truman and Clifford were motivated by crass electoral considerations (read: Jewish votes), he would sum up the episode in these cutting and embittered words:
My protests against the precipitate action and warnings as to consequences with the Arab world appear to have been outweighed by considerations unknown to me, but I can only conclude that the president’s political advisers, having failed last Wednesday [May 12] to make the president a father of the new state, have determined at least to make him the midwife.
How Harry Truman Crossed His Own State Department to Recognize Israel
Response to EndlessWire (Original post)
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Response to EndlessWire (Original post)
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BidenRocks
(2,287 posts)What does that really mean?
mjvpi
(1,786 posts)But it appears to be happening again. The names were changed
Initech
(106,427 posts)But nope too many people voted for the fucking asshole in charge and he's treating Netanyahu like his fascist BFF.
womanofthehills
(10,408 posts)Look at this group who posed with Netanyahu during his visit. I think Amy Kloubchar gots lots of flack for this photo - today she’s talking about starvation of kids in Gaza. AIPAC is a huge problem
7/10/25
Link to tweet
?s=46&t=YZgyyp4w_z7vW3neKxa6cQ
Yesterday these Senators took part in a photo-op with Netanyahu, who is wanted for war crimes. Shameful.
7/10/25
Ted Cruz
Adam Schiff
Jacky Rosen
Steve Daines
Amy Klobuchar
Bill Cassidy
John Thune
Jim Risch
Chuck Schumer
Maria Cantwell
Chris Coons
Cory Booker
Dave McCormick
Jon Husted
Response to womanofthehills (Reply #47)
Brenda This message was self-deleted by its author.
Pompoy
(243 posts)Even at the beginning of the war, when Israel would ask them to evacuate certain areas/specific buildings, the fathers would refuse. Providing Hamas fighters with human shields with their families.
So, hesitant to get on full condemnation mode against Israel.
brush
(61,033 posts)all Jews world wide are complicit with Netanyahu's terrorism against the Gazans.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Not the effing human shields bs
Really, I would delete this. We are way beyond believing this bovine excrement.
Pompoy
(243 posts)What war crimes/crimes against humanity are you people talking about? Spell it out. Equating Israel's actions with the actions of the Palestinians. Get a grip. It's war. An existential conflict.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Seek and you shall find.. .
The info is out there.
It IS existential - for the Palestinians!
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)May I remind you of the Hamas charter statement to eradicate Israel and all Jews world wide?
Israel is surrounded by Muslim nations that have more than once banded together to destroy it.
muriel_volestrangler
(104,864 posts)Netanyahu
Accused First Name
Benjamin
Charges
Allegedly responsible for the war crimes of starvation as a method of warfare and of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu
The Chamber also noted that decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional. They were not made to fulfil Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law or to ensure that the civilian population in Gaza would be adequately supplied with goods in need. In fact, they were a response to the pressure of the international community or requests by the United States of America. In any event, the increases in humanitarian assistance were not sufficient to improve the population’s access to essential goods.
Furthermore, the Chamber found reasonable grounds to believe that no clear military need or other justification under international humanitarian law could be identified for the restrictions placed on access for humanitarian relief operations. Despite warnings and appeals made by, inter alia, the UN Security Council, UN Secretary General, States, and governmental and civil society organisations about the humanitarian situation in Gaza, only minimal humanitarian assistance was authorised. In this regard, the Chamber considered the prolonged period of deprivation and Mr Netanyahu’s statement connecting the halt in the essential goods and humanitarian aid with the goals of war.
The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare.
The Chamber found that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the lack of food, water, electricity and fuel, and specific medical supplies, created conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of part of the civilian population in Gaza, which resulted in the death of civilians, including children due to malnutrition and dehydration. On the basis of material presented by the Prosecution covering the period until 20 May 2024, the Chamber could not determine that all elements of the crime against humanity of extermination were met. However, the Chamber did find that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the crime against humanity of murder was committed in relation to these victims.
In addition, by intentionally limiting or preventing medical supplies and medicine from getting into Gaza, in particular anaesthetics and anaesthesia machines, the two individuals are also responsible for inflicting great suffering by means of inhumane acts on persons in need of treatment. Doctors were forced to operate on wounded persons and carry out amputations, including on children, without anaesthetics, and/or were forced to use inadequate and unsafe means to sedate patients, causing these persons extreme pain and suffering. This amounts to the crime against humanity of other inhumane acts.
The Chamber also found reasonable grounds to believe that the abovementioned conduct deprived a significant portion of the civilian population in Gaza of their fundamental rights, including the rights to life and health, and that the population was targeted based on political and/or national grounds. It therefore found that the crime against humanity of persecution was committed.
Finally, the Chamber assessed that there are reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility as civilian superiors for the war crime of intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population of Gaza. In this regard, the Chamber found that the material provided by the Prosecution only allowed it to make findings on two incidents that qualified as attacks that were intentionally directed against civilians. Reasonable grounds to believe exist that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant, despite having measures available to them to prevent or repress the commission of crimes or ensure the submittal of the matter to the competent authorities, failed to do so.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-rejects-state-israels-challenges
Two leading human rights organisations based in Israel, B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights, say Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza and the country’s western allies have a legal and moral duty to stop it.
In reports published on Monday, the two groups said Israel had targeted civilians in Gaza only because of their identity as Palestinians over nearly two years of war, causing severe and in some cases irreparable damage to Palestinian society.
...
“What we see is a clear, intentional attack on civilians in order to destroy a group,” said Yuli Novak, the director of B’Tselem, calling for urgent action. “I think every human being has to ask himself: what do you do in the face of genocide?”
...
The destruction of the healthcare system alone makes the war genocidal under article 2c of the genocide convention, which prohibits deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group “in whole or part”, said its [Physicians for Human Rights] director, Guy Shalev.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/28/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-say-israel-based-human-rights-groups
Ping Tung
(3,757 posts)womanofthehills
(10,408 posts)American drs in Gaza say the kids are targeted and it’s almost like a game - one day they are all shot in the head, another day the chest, another day the testicles etc. We see from the many videos how sick this army is - photographing themselves in Palestinian women’s clothes and hanging kids dolls from the ceiling.
When they bomb a Dr or journalist ‘s home, they do it at night when the kids will be there sleeping.
Besides evil, how dumb can Netanyou be? This is 2025 and the world is watching his genocide in real time. Our kids are seeing decapitated babies on their phones everyday.
Thankful the younger generation is anti war. Young Republicans at Turning Points gave Tucker & Dave Smith the most applause- the two anti Gaza war guys. Saw the clips on X. Trump is probably compromised by Israeli intelligence - so many podcasters Dem & Republican are now anti war. Big shout out to Crystal Ball for covering this big time
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4owHijpuxxuMOtw3dwFz3d?si=_Y3n3cH6SraDnq0j4xbSsA
Big Blue Marble
(5,638 posts)You might want to check it out. These people are starving and dying because a great
power has them penned in and is starving them as in a medieval siege. Children are who
were not on the.planet on October 7 are dying every day. These deaths are on Isreal,
the US, and Europe.
Pompoy
(243 posts)They can't win militarily, they want this in order to get Israel punished and eventually exterminated. They have been at it for decades.
Israel is not going to erase itself to make them happy.
They want this. It's their weapon.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)Not all Palestinians support Hamas, but are victims of the terrorist organization.
RobinA
(10,437 posts)*
Violet_Crumble
(36,356 posts)Or is it more a fever-dream sort of thing where evil Palestinian dads defy the evacuation orders from 'most moral army in the world' who wouldn't harm a hair on a Palestinian's head. They hate Israel more than they love their families, right? I've heard that sort of poisonous rhetoric before and it doesn't belong at DU. It's dehumanising a people, which is one of the 10 stages of genocide. That sort of hateful language usually comes from exreme RWers where they try to portray the target group as somehow subhuman and different to the rest of us. It's called 'othering' and another example of it is the way the MAGATs talk about immigrants.
But out of interest I'd love to see a link to something that says Palestinian fathers want to sacrifice their children to make Israel look bad. Let's be real here. Israel doesn't need any help making itself look bad. Bibi and his govt is doing a massively great job of that on their own.
Maru Kitteh
(30,734 posts)a horrible mental health crisis causing them to harm themselves and others.
Unfortunately, WE are currently in a horrible mental health crisis, causing us to deeply harm ourselves and others.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Covered up by a lot of nationalist myths and propaganda. And very successful lobbying.
It started in 1948.
It didn't get better.
What Gaza's people and all Palestinians have suffered should be read by all who think the Gaza war is an aberration.
https://chomsky.info/20130318/
As for the US, that is beyond words too.
It's a very sad, scary world now.
Intractable
(1,307 posts)It's unfortunate that the one to have done that would/should have been Biden.
Trump will not be the one. He has his own eyes on Gaza property.
Maru Kitteh
(30,734 posts)EndlessWire
(8,103 posts)That guy flew into a war zone and had the heart to heart with Netanyahu. Netanyahu ignored him. Biden was a good Statesman. He understood what happened, but still told them to watch out, cool it. They did not. And now, everything Biden did to avoid such tragedy is forgotten. It wasn't his fault that Netanyahu is such an asshole.
I will always feel that Israel wants the US to back them in all war efforts. Somehow, we are on the hook. Look how we backed them against Iran. They want money, bombs, etc., yet they treated Biden with great disrespect. They got the pRes they wanted in Trump. Trump is stupid as hell, and all he has in his head are transactional "what can I get for myself" ideas that don't include any humanitarian gestures of peace. And, he thinks he deserves a Nobel.
I understand what you said. I just don't think it is fair that somehow Bidern was supposed to do---what? What was he supposed to do?
Intractable
(1,307 posts)The idea is to defend Israel. Big bombs don't defend Israel. They create the next generation of terrorists.
Part of being a good statesman is recognizing and standing up to "assholes."
> I will always feel that Israel wants the US to back them in all war efforts.
I used to unequivocally agree that we should back them, but now, I object to this.
Unfortunately, with Trump in office, Gaza has no hope.
questionseverything
(11,255 posts)Or at least, slowed them down
multigraincracker
(36,362 posts)Only the Secular folks get along.
imagine
Godot51
(642 posts)At some point in their history the Israeli government, typically hardline due to the history of the Jewish peoples, made a choice to become merciless, unforgiving, and implacable.
As happens in too many societies, a small, somehow vocal, somehow dominant, somehow controlling minority took over. This is true in much of the world, in the U.S. right now, for example, and, while terrible, is because of the quiescence of a passive majority.
dlk
(12,972 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2025, 08:58 AM - Edit history (1)
In order to avoid prison time.
PghTiny
(291 posts)Right now, Bibi Netanyahu's Likud is in coalition with finance minister Bezalel Smotrich's Religious Zionism (fundie Jewish/near Kahanist) party and interior minister Itamar Ben Gvir's Jewish Power (Jewish fascist/Kahanist) party. This coalition allows Bibi to evade prosecution and likely conviction for corruption. Both those minor parties have desires to ethnically cleanse Palestinian land of all Palestinians. Simply put, it sounds like Bibi is willing (and able) to sacrifice all of Palestine and its people so that he can stay out of prison.
and our own little Donny Dirty Drawers looks up to him as a role model.
The Republican Party is his Likud.
Look at his policy on immigrants.
thought crime
(812 posts)AloeVera
(3,776 posts)He is not being "made" to do anything merely for self-preservation.
His self-preservation happily concides with his, and the entire Likud party's, goals since the party's establishment 50 or so years ago. It's why the two-state solution never happened. That wasn't the goal.
The goal was clearly defined in the Likud Charter for heaven's sake!
"Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
How's that for "From the River to the Sea" being called genocidal? Pure projection!
Don't let Bibi off the hook as a mere criminal evading prosecution. He is, and always was, as his party is, an aspirational ethnic cleanser. He is in Nirvana right now, all his dreams and that of his party coming true...
Pompoy
(243 posts)Probably because the West Bank Palestinians weren't free to arm themselves and dedicate themselves to attacking Israel.
If the West Bank was an independent Palestinian state, they wouldn't act like the Gaza Palestinians?
As if the Palestinians wouldn't be ethnic cleansers.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)You could have learned so much!
For example, what is an occupation, Gaza's status under international law (yeah I know, who cares about that?), what it's like to live under a 17-year blockade that strangles one's economy, farming, fishing, and puts you on a perpetual "diet", or having to live with bombs dropping on your head every few years, everything coming in or going out only if Israel said so. So much more. Lots of reading out there what living like that was like.
Gaza was supposed to be part of the State of Palestine, remember? The UN promised it to them. Israel can't just take Gaza, as much as Israel's supporters would like that to happen.
And Palestinians learned about ethnic cleansing in 1948. As you treat people, so shall you be treated - isn't that a wise saying?
But no, Palestinians by now have pretty much given up on the right of return. They just want a state based on the 1967 borders - which is only about 5-10% of historic Palestine and much, much less than they were promised. But it would have to include Gaza of course.
Even that pittance, so much less than they were promised - even that is too much for Israel to give. Now it wants to annex the West Bank. And of course Gaza too. And expel all the Palestinians.
What were you saying about who wants to ethnically cleanse whom? The master cleanser has always been Israel and that is projected onto Palestinians. Laughable and absurd. And shameful.
OrlandoDem2
(3,110 posts)Today’s Israel appears to be run by a politically corrupt corporate military industrial complex. That’s a far cry from the small country founded in the wake of the Holocaust and WWII.
Hekate
(99,620 posts)The America of 2025 is not the America of 1948, as well…
When my brother and I were born in California, he in 1948 and I in 1947, we grew up in a nation that had a legitimate claim to righteous heroism. The US played a large part in defeating the Axis, and the crimes of our enemies were not a secret from us. The country we were born into was having a surge of optimism.
When my husband was born in a shattered Europe to older parents who had lost nearly every relative and barely knew each other when they were introduced and decided to get married, Israel was the shining hope.
Pragmatically, his parents chose to take their 3 little boys to America in 1953, to NYC where my MIL’s surviving sister & husband had already moved. But Israel… the post-war founders of Israel also had a legitimate claim to righteous heroism. Israel shone like a beacon…
Here we are in 2025. In our household we understand one another — our hearts are broken. We each have a sense of an ending of something we held dear. For me, the America I thought I knew. For him, the Israel founded in such hope when he was only a year old. The loss is double for him, really — a naturalized citizen since early childhood, served in the US Air Force during the Vietnam era, built an entire life here.
And to whom do I turn to sort out this sorrow? Certainly not DU.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Read Ilan Pappe, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine or The Hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi.
Israel created these national myths around its founding and sold it to us. The truth is very different.
Israel never changed. Perhaps we did. Perhaps not.
Passages
(3,646 posts)Too often, AIPAC is seen as a major culprit; in reality, they are a symptom of a greater problem.
snip* Morris is critical of Israeli atrocities, in part because they were too limited. Ben-Gurion’s great error, Morris observes, perhaps a “fatal mistake,” was not to have “cleansed the whole country — the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River.” Recently declassified cabinet records indicate that Ben-Gurion may have agreed that it was a serious error.
https://chomsky.info/20130318/
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)They have been treated as unwanted human dross ever since.
These people inhabited, and were driven out from, the area around Gaza, including the areas attacked on Oct 7th.
People should read the whole speech to understand what they have endured. It is to weep.
Getting rid of the Arabs of Gaza was only one facet of much broader goals. During the 1948 expulsions, Israeli government Arabists predicted that the refugees would either assimilate elsewhere or “would be crushed” and “die,” while “most of them would turn into human dust and the waste of society, and join the most impoverished classes in the Arab countries.” Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion’s view for the “Arabs of the Land of Israel” who remained after the expulsion of 1948 was that they “have only one function left to them — to run away.” Though vigorously denied for many years, the causes of the refugee flight are no longer seriously in question. Few would question the conclusions of the most prominent Israeli historian of the topic, Benny Morris. In his words, “Above all, let me reiterate, the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants’ fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities, and rumors of atrocities — and by the crucial Israeli cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return,” leaving the Palestinians “crushed, with some 700,000 driven into exile and another 150,000 left under Israeli rule.” Morris is critical of Israeli atrocities, in part because they were too limited. Ben-Gurion’s great error, Morris observes, perhaps a “fatal mistake,” was not to have “cleansed the whole country — the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River.” Recently declassified cabinet records indicate that Ben-Gurion may have agreed that it was a serious error.
Snip
Pompoy
(243 posts)Of course the way the Turks did it, was genocidal.
Pompoy
(243 posts)The problem is that the ones who were in the West Bank after Israel occupied it are not seen as Israeli citizens and treated differently.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Proponents of ethnic cleansing coming out of the woodwork now.
Silent up until now.
Hmmm....
Pompoy
(243 posts)I remember something like 7-8 years ago on a NYT article pointing out that the Israelis had given up on pleasing the Palestinians though.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Are you for real?
Don't bother answering. Bye.
Pompoy
(243 posts)AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Canadians are VERY interested in the Gaza genocide. Appalled and disgusted would be more accurate though. You see we're not as brainwashed and indoctrinated as, sadly, many of our neighbours across our border. As proof, we didn't elect our own Trump wannabe. And of course we still have a free press, not mouthpieces for Israel.
So long.
Pompoy
(243 posts)AloeVera
(3,776 posts)The "fury" you refer to should have been reigned in. It was clear from the beginning, this was a terrible vengeance inflicting collective punishment.
Over 17,000 (THOUSAND!) children were shredded and incinerated. At least. Thousands more perished alone and frightened under tons of concrete. They have not been found and now their remains are bulldozed over.
There were hundreds, thousands of war crimes committed. Where were the voices, the outrage?
What Hamas did never justified what Israel did in response. The Palestinian people suffered the most cruel collective punishment for 22 months that they did not deserve. Let us be emphatic and clear about that.
And yes, had there been such an outrage as there is now, this horrible ethnic cleansing operation masquerading as a war never would have come to fruition. Had it been stopped too, by enforcing both domestic and international law, we may not have Trump now. And that is the sad reality and the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about.
I think you're OP is beautiful, otherwise.
mjvpi
(1,786 posts)My daughter got her masters from Berkeley in the spring of 2024. Big demonstration at graduation. I heard nothing antisemitic that day. I heard straight ahead condemnation of the massacre being carried out by Israel. No blaming all Jews.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)So many threads on DU falsely claiming anti-semitism. All the students wanted was for the massacres to stop. For their universities to stop investing in companies that play a part in the genocide. For their youthful idealism and sense of justice, many paid a heavy price.
But aside from the college protesters, no else cared but those on the left that had not yet been cowered into submission. There was no support from Congress with the exception of most, not all, of The Squad. Look what happened to two of them. It's crazy scary and disgusting.
mjvpi
(1,786 posts)This was a huge issue for many of the college age kids that I know.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Most of the people who stayed home cited Gaza as the reason. There were millions who didn't vote. Probably the college kids among them. Biden did lose youth support.
Then of course those who voted for Trump. That was idiotic but desperate people do desperate things. These were people with skin in the game, they were VERY upset. They are only human, a fact denied by all the FAFO ing I saw.
If only we could have a do-over. Hold Israel's feet to the fire the first time they dropped a 2000 lb bomb on a residential building to kill one Hamas official (and a few kids, families and neighbours too). But we supplied the 2000 lb bombs, so... did nobody wonder those were not appropriate for such a crowded urban area?
I could go on. It all makes my blood boil. Still.
electric_blue68
(24,042 posts)And not vote.
And others for whatever reasons for not voting for Harris - racism, sexism, or both!
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)It WAS wrong. And self-defeating, which should have been obvious..
Strong emotions and a sense of abandonment created the space where judgement was diminished. Then a snake like Trump could slither in with his lies and be believed. Or people could not see past their emotions to go and vote for Harris. Yes, there was also sexism and racism, but that's mostly in the Republican ranks. I don't think it played a huge part in the Democratic vote. I could be wrong. Someone should find out. Maybe there's already data on that.
There were misteps made. Not enough outreach was one. Messages were sent during the last days of the campaign. I remember feeling such despair after each one. Like that Clinton speech in Michigan of all places. See post #161.
People saw all these things and became apathetic. Lost hope and faith. I don't condone it, it was the wrong thing to do, but I UNDERSTAND it. I really hope party leadership will come to a reckoning with it. It needs to be done. The youth especially are being lost.
Pompoy
(243 posts)vanessa_ca
(570 posts)Others chose to roll the dice.
And it really didn't help when Bill Clinton, Mr NAFTA himself, went to Michigan of all places using likudnik codewords Judea and Samaria
Read the comments.
"they're gonna lose Michigan"
"Bill Clinton: I am dehumanizing you in front of you,
Also Bill Clinton: Vote for our party, ok?"
"I know you're upset about all the children being killed... But have you ever thought about the perspective of the killers?"
"Was this supposed to motivate Dearborn residents to come out for Harris? I don't think it's going to work."
"Yeah, I am never voting Democrat ever again. To think I voted for Hillary in 2016."
"legit just called my reps and said this attitude is why the dems have lost me for life."
"For sure I’m not voting for this. 👎"
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)I cringed and wanted to cry... I knew then Michigan and more was lost.
Or after the Liz Cheney appearances.... Hello?
And Fetterman...Hello?
All water under the bridge but now we're all drowning. Should we wait for the post-mortem?
vanessa_ca
(570 posts)Talk about tone deaf. I really, really hope the Democratic party is taking heed, otherwise, we're in big trouble. Whatever strategist thought that was a good idea needs to be fired.
Passages
(3,646 posts)snip
Dire Straits
In December 2004, the World Bank completed a remarkable study on the implications of the planned Israeli “disengagement” from 17 Gaza Strip settlements and four settlements in the West Bank. Using recent economic projections, the World Bank determined that the disengagement plan alone, as described by Israel, would not be enough to stop the Palestinian economy’s downward spiral into poverty and despair. For the first time, the World Bank recommended that no additional funds above current subsistence infusions be given to Palestinians until Israel takes significant steps to remove the system of checkpoints, barriers and permits that hinders the travel of Palestinians and their products throughout the West Bank and Gaza and between the two separated blocks of land. “While money, and in particular donor money, has an important role to play in reviving the economy,” asserted the report, “it is not the determining factor. The last four years exemplify how little donor assistance can achieve in the absence of a positive policy environment — while donor disbursements doubled to almost $1 billion per annum, real personal incomes fell by almost 40 percent in the same period.” [2]
Currently, some 47 percent of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories (1.7 million people) live below the official poverty line of $2.10 a day. [3] While this percentage is down from 2002 rates — that year marked by weeks of 24-hour curfew during Israeli invasions of the West Bank — all signs point to continuing deterioration
https://merip.org/2005/03/the-tar-baby-of-foreign-aid/
EndlessWire
(8,103 posts)I just never envisioned the two states being a Trump Hotel and Israel.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)Been the goal since 1948, even before. Likud's goal too. This entire "war" was fought with systematic precision, planning and foresight to end up exactly where it is now. Inevitable ethnic cleansing. It's why it's a genocide. All rules thrown out for 22 months to achieve this execrable goal.
It was not fought for Trump Towers. Nor will any developer want to build on poisoned soil, air, water. The clean-up alone will take years and only sociopaths would want to vacation there anyways. Trump and Netanyahu and the settlers perhaps.
But it will be Israel's unless we find a way to stop all this madness.
WSHazel
(581 posts)The divisions within Israel are significant, and Netanyahu's divisiveness is sowing the seeds of Israel's potential failure. Many in Israel do not want to live in a country that is increasingly under the control of a radical right, and a country that is in a permanent state of war because it is constantly antagonizing its neighbors.
People will vote with their feet, and Israel can't afford to lose too many of the more liberal Israelis who are the driver of the nation's economy and disproportionately serve in the Israeli military.
RobinA
(10,437 posts)Not here, for sure. That would be trading one set of right wing nutcases for another.
UpInArms
(53,458 posts)You must have been reading my mind … only your words encapsulated it better
ImNotGod
(1,168 posts)in Gaza.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)?
Skittles
(167,767 posts)IT NEVER FUCKING ENDS
Skittles
(167,767 posts)Trump and Netanyahu have trashed their countries, fuck the both of them, they're DISGUSTING
Jack Valentino
(3,394 posts)is not what I would have chosen for her
(I'm not going to wade through the responses to this OP----
if I did I might say too much.....)
live love laugh
(15,937 posts)
Intractable
(1,307 posts)I was born Jewish. I pretty much gave up all religion and customs as a child.
Whenever Israel is attacked, I feel more Jewish.
When Israel is the aggressor, I feel less Jewish. I have never been more disconnected than I am now.
IronLionZion
(50,008 posts)They made them out to be inhuman monsters to justify doing monstrous things to them. Sounds a lot like the "But Hamas" excuses we see here for what Bibi is doing to people who had nothing to do with Hamas or the Oct 7 attacks.
LexVegas
(6,922 posts)yardwork
(68,154 posts)I see an enormous amount of antisemitism on the left.
lostincalifornia
(4,568 posts)
maliaSmith
(98 posts)Israel has killed over 50,000 people in Gaza and is now starving the rest of them. Israel is no better than Hittler's Germany.
Bettie
(18,912 posts)shooting the starving people when they come to get food.
OMGWTF
(4,911 posts)Nuttyahoo is Hitler in a Yamika.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts)I don't think it was a country.
Old coins from the territory were inscribed with Hebrew letters.
sarisataka
(22,017 posts)LeftInTX
(34,006 posts)The region was known as Palestine, but it wasn't a country. Israel became a country in 1948. Palestine then became part of Egypt and Jordan. Then in 1967, Egypt attacked Israel and lost Gaza to Israel. Likewise, Jordan lost the West Bank in the same war, but Israel let them retain control until King Hussein finally decided he did not want it anymore in 1988.
uponit7771
(93,252 posts)... so I'm not blaming the nation but they do have to hear alternative sources and that's on them.
BB is a crook and he's willing to murder everything moving to stay out of jail
pansypoo53219
(22,615 posts)SleeplessinSoCal
(10,286 posts)His powwrful remarks come at the end of the video.
Mossfern
(4,388 posts) Skittles
(167,767 posts)he gets it
electric_blue68
(24,042 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2025, 01:30 AM - Edit history (1)
Adding... I had tears in my eyes listening to him.
Bettie
(18,912 posts)and compassionate toward those suffering as well.
He's always been a good man.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)His passion and anger in this video come from a deep place of compassion and fairness. He shows who he is.
I wish everyone could heed his words:
"I ask you, Jews everywhere...to spend some time alone and ask if this is acceptable, sustainable.
How could it be done to you and your ancestors and you TURN AROUND!!! and you do it to someone else".
Uttering this last sentence breaks him down...
Bettie
(18,912 posts)and from every account I've ever seen, he is an honestly good man.
AloeVera
(3,776 posts)A good man.
JoseBalow
(8,507 posts)swong19104
(529 posts)I am anti-fascism. And what Israel is doing is fascism in action.
David__77
(24,479 posts)Mossfern
(4,388 posts)It's just wrong.
akbacchus_BC
(5,825 posts)recognized both Palestine and Israel as States. That way, Israel would not have autonomy over Palestine. The atrocities committed by Israelis against the Palestinians resulted in the October raid by Hamas, I am against that. But enough is enough, how much longer can the Palestinians see their homeland taken over by Israel Settlements, boxing them in with limited access to water, etc. Not only that, why is Israel the new apartheid? Fast forward, when you see the total destruction of the Gaza Strip and the genocide going on and world leaders were not condemning Netenyahu, he became emboldened. The Israeli government referred to Palestinians as human animals and most recently, referred to them as cockroaches. Just the other day, an Israel army general blatantly said that Israel wants the Gaza Strip. When you see the images on TV of the suffering of the Palestinians, families being killed, hospitals destroyed, aid workers deliberately murdered, children dying from starvation, food aid blocked by the Israeli govt. and Netenyahu going on TV saying there is no starvation, I had to ask myself, is he Jewish and where is his humanity. Long and short, the Israeli govt. is murdering Palestinians for their homeland, it is genocide and it is cruel beyond my imagination, and the world is letting the suffering go on. I am against Netenyahu and his government. I know that many Israelis are against the genocide and am with them. Thank you for your post.