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Uncle Joe

(62,523 posts)
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 03:00 PM Jul 23

The surprising science of alpha males Frans de Waal



Jul 9, 2018

In this fascinating look at the "alpha male," primatologist Frans de Waal explores the privileges and costs of power while drawing surprising parallels between how humans and primates choose their leaders. His research reveals some of the unexpected capacities of alpha males -- generosity, empathy, even peacekeeping -- and sheds light on the power struggles of human politicians. "Someone who is big and strong and intimidates and insults everyone is not necessarily an alpha male," de Waal says.
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andym

(6,020 posts)
1. Well there is always Jane Goodall's chimpanzee Frodo as a dramatic counterexample
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 03:05 PM
Jul 23
https://blog.michael-lawrence-wilson.com/2014/01/19/frodo-30-june-1976-10-november-2013/

"Frodo was born on 30 June 1976, the second of Fifi’s nine offspring. Fifi was a highly successful mother and was for many years the highest-ranking female of Gombe’s Kasekela community. As an infant, Frodo proved mischievous, disrupting Jane Goodall’s efforts to record data on mother-infant relationships by grabbing at her notebooks and binoculars. As he grew older, Frodo developed a habit of throwing rocks, charging at, hitting, and knocking over human researchers and tourists. In 1988, Frodo grabbed and pulled at cartoonist Gary Larson’s arm when he visited Gombe, and the next year Frodo severely beat Goodall herself.

In his prime, Frodo weighed 55 kg (121 lbs), larger and stronger than any of his peers. Frodo rose quickly in the ranks as he matured and won the position of alpha male by overthrowing his brother Freud in October, 1997. Frodo reigned as alpha male for 5 years, until weakened by sickness in December 2002. We knew the game was up for Frodo when he gave submissive pant-grunts to the next alpha male, Sheldon, in January 2003.

As alpha male, Frodo ruled by brute force. Unlike his brother Freud, who frequently groomed lower ranking males in apparent efforts to win their support, Frodo rarely groomed any other males, but instead frequently presented himself to be groomed by them.

Frodo competed vigorously for mating opportunities throughout his life, fathering his first offspring, Zeus, when he was 17, and his last, Samwise, when he was 25. He even forced his attention on his own mother, fathering an infant, Fred, who lived for less than a year before dying in a mange epidemic. Frodo fathered both of Gremlin’s twins, Golden and Glitta, the only wild chimpanzee twins known to have survived to adulthood. Frodo’s son Titan follows in his father’s footsteps by throwing rocks at baboons, chimpanzees and people, and has recently challenged the current alpha male. In total, Frodo fathered eight offspring, more than any other male at Gombe but Wilkie (who fathered 10). Frodo’s offspring were born to six different females: Trezia, Patti, Gremlin, his own mother Fifi, Sparrow and her daughter Sandi."

Uncle Joe

(62,523 posts)
2. Frans de Waal doesn't state that those kind of chimpanzees don't exist, he does state
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 03:19 PM
Jul 23

they don't fare as well when they fall.

The group treats empathic alpha leaders (both male and female) better as they age.

andym

(6,020 posts)
3. Perhaps alpha male chimps aren't as strongly influenced by the prospect of future decline
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 05:48 PM
Jul 23

as they should. Human leaders also often seem to ignore consequences of aging to their own peril. Frodo himself is a good example of how such an aggressive alpha male did not fare well later.

Uncle Joe

(62,523 posts)
4. This is the thing, I took from the OP
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 06:08 PM
Jul 23

Alpha leader chimps aren't all like that, some are dominating or cruel while others both male and female can be empathetic.

So the term "alpha male" may be a bit simplistic in the way our modern culture has portrayed it to the people.

soldierant

(8,775 posts)
6. Since MAGA automatically rejects any new discovery which contradicts what the "know" it should
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 06:57 PM
Jul 23

surprise no one that the original study whom which the "Alpha male " concept came was terribly flawed.

Thw study was done with wolves in captivity, who are just as different from wolves in the wild as prison populations differ from general populations. Later studies conducted in the wild has shown that male wolves in the wild are serious and conscientious protectors of their mates and offspring, not bullies.

But it's not that surprising that some chimpanzee alp[ha males are bullies. Chimpanzees are much more closely related to humans than are wolves.

TheProle

(3,548 posts)
7. Bonobos are equally close to humans
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 07:32 PM
Jul 23

And they are matriarchal and rule by empathy, conflict resolution and free love.

soldierant

(8,775 posts)
8. Good for them, I see that as the other side of the coin.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 08:47 PM
Jul 23

Humans are, or used to be, believed to have had matriarchy - until we didn't.

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