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OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 07:05 PM Monday

There has never been a plausible case of Israeli genocide.

I've avoided this conversation for more than the past year. It's likely that this was discussed contemporaneously with the BBC interview, but that I didn't see it. At this point though, as people begin to finally realize that they've been duped by an extraordinary Iranian propaganda campaign, it would be immensely helpful if people would, at the very least, stop making the claim of adjudicated genocide... right?


The video is 1:28 long. From its description:

Interviewed by Stephen Sackur on the BBC's Hardtalk programme on 25 April 2024, Judge Joan Donoghue confirms that the Order made by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in January 2024, when she was its President, did not decide that there was a plausible case of genocide - contrary to some media reports.



Judge Donoghue: “You know, I’m glad I have a chance to address that because the Court’s test for deciding whether to impose [provisional] measures uses the idea of plausibility, but the test is the plausibility of the rights that are asserted by the applicant, in this case South Africa. So the court decided that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. It then looked at the facts as well, but it did not decide – and this is something where I’m correcting what’s often said in the media – it didn’t decide that the claim of genocide was plausible."
45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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There has never been a plausible case of Israeli genocide. (Original Post) OilemFirchen Monday OP
The Order was made by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in January 2024, sheshe2 Monday #1
As I said, I've been staying away from the subject. OilemFirchen Monday #8
I do understand your staying away from the subject, I do. sheshe2 Yesterday #12
UKFLI Charitable Trust? Wow, YouTube is pushing the propaganda at you. muriel_volestrangler 11 hrs ago #29
That seems like a bit of a technical cop out EdmondDantes_ Monday #2
From "Never Again" to writerJT Monday #4
This message was self-deleted by its author iemanja Yesterday #15
The ICJ is only one of many legitimate authorities on the subject of genocide. I have seen a number of very plausible Martin68 Monday #3
Please link to them all so I can read those as well. sheshe2 Monday #5
Try google, it worked for me krawhitham Monday #10
I'm pressed for time and you could certainly google the topic yourself, but I'll provide a few reliable links Martin68 15 hrs ago #23
You're referring back to a decision a year and a half ago, which of course ignores everything highplainsdem Monday #6
This Johnny2X2X Monday #7
Do tell. OilemFirchen Monday #9
In 2024 they called the genocide claims "plausible" iemanja Yesterday #14
This is pure comedy gold. OilemFirchen 10 hrs ago #30
Weird take that you find arguing over the deaths of a lot of people hilarious EdmondDantes_ 9 hrs ago #34
And there it is. OilemFirchen 9 hrs ago #39
That you consider any of this comedy iemanja 9 hrs ago #37
Post removed Post removed 9 hrs ago #41
And Israel is not Netanyahu... sheshe2 Yesterday #16
Netanyahu was elected by the people of Israel to, among other things, run the military. While individual Israelis are Martin68 15 hrs ago #25
I'm old enough to remember some being chided for using "Palestine" in lieu of "Hamas". OilemFirchen 10 hrs ago #31
Heady days, yes indeed. sheshe2 9 hrs ago #35
Message auto-removed Name removed Monday #11
Then let Israel stand trial at the ICC iemanja Yesterday #13
By your own words: sheshe2 Yesterday #17
Mahalo, she, for pointing that out. Cha Yesterday #18
Thank you, Cha. sheshe2 23 hrs ago #19
I know how you feel.. Cha 23 hrs ago #21
That was a "that was then" then. 🤣 OilemFirchen 10 hrs ago #32
Rolling with the Punches.. mostly. Cha 9 hrs ago #33
Nobody is saying to put random citizens on trial. Cuthbert Allgood 15 hrs ago #24
Aloha, Oilem... TY for this Cha 23 hrs ago #20
There is a death camp being constructed in Rafah iemanja 23 hrs ago #22
😪 annalog 14 hrs ago #27
Thanks for the links. nt cliffside 4 hrs ago #45
Rec. nt LexVegas 15 hrs ago #26
All the Palestinian corpses are just collateral damage and unfortunate mistakes of a "Just War". Ping Tung 14 hrs ago #28
The civilians are the targets iemanja 9 hrs ago #38
I find it obscene that there are those that defend the murders, starvation, injuries, on innocent people. Ping Tung 9 hrs ago #40
Israel has lost the PR war. Everything is forever changed. Duncan Grant 9 hrs ago #36
Well said. H2O Man 9 hrs ago #42
Man, I'd hate to be an Israeli. OilemFirchen 9 hrs ago #43
No one is falling for this manipulative and ineffective rhetoric. Duncan Grant 9 hrs ago #44

sheshe2

(92,935 posts)
1. The Order was made by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in January 2024,
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 08:29 PM
Monday

I am not sure why anyone would have an issue with this post. You/The interview stated facts of the court's ruling. Nothing kooky about that.

Thank you, Oilem.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
8. As I said, I've been staying away from the subject.
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 11:24 PM
Monday

This video popped up on my YouTube home page. UKLFI Charitable Trust had just posted it. I'd never seen it, so I thought I'd bring it here and, ya know, poke the bear a bit.

How are you She? Doing well, I hope?

sheshe2

(92,935 posts)
12. I do understand your staying away from the subject, I do.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:39 AM
Yesterday

Ah, the bear woke for a moment only to be told to take a seat by their peers.

*sigh*

I am doing okay, the best I can do in these times. It's hard for all of us. It really is good to see you again, Oilem.

EdmondDantes_

(639 posts)
2. That seems like a bit of a technical cop out
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 09:09 PM
Monday

The court didn't rule Israel was committing genocide, but also didn't rule they weren't and didn't dismiss the charges as Israel wanted. The court granted most of the requests for Israel to stop doing things that do fit the definition of genocide.

How often does the ICJ feel the need to say a group has the right to be safe from genocide without there being a significant threat of it?

And really if you're arguing that "it's technically not ruled genocide yet", you're not really making a compelling affirmative case for being a good actor. Sure Hamas sucks but this isn't a good defense.

writerJT

(339 posts)
4. From "Never Again" to
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 09:20 PM
Monday

“What we’re doing has not technically been ruled genocide as of right now!”

Not a catchy bumper sticker, but oh well.

Response to EdmondDantes_ (Reply #2)

Martin68

(26,182 posts)
3. The ICJ is only one of many legitimate authorities on the subject of genocide. I have seen a number of very plausible
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 09:11 PM
Monday

arguments from other authorities that Israel is indeed committing genocide in Gaza.

highplainsdem

(57,420 posts)
6. You're referring back to a decision a year and a half ago, which of course ignores everything
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 10:23 PM
Monday

Israel has done since then.

Johnny2X2X

(23,083 posts)
7. This
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 10:32 PM
Monday

What the hell is wrong with people? Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have been slaughtered since this ruling 2 months into the war.

BiBi literally went on TV with Trump and said their plan explicitly. They are going to kill or expel 100% of the people living in Gaza, so they can sell their land to their real estate friends. It is the definition of ethnic cleansing and genocide. They’re killing dozens of civilians a day who are lining up for food. It is an absolute evil being perpetrated by a far Right government in Israel.

Everyone should be appalled people are still defending it, especially with nonsense like this from 18 months ago. Shame on you.

iemanja

(56,283 posts)
14. In 2024 they called the genocide claims "plausible"
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:51 AM
Yesterday
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o.amp

In 2025, it’s what’s called a slam dunk. The planned death camps should be a clue.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
30. This is pure comedy gold.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:51 PM
10 hrs ago

From your link:

In January, the ICJ delivered an interim judgement - and one key paragraph from the ruling drew the most attention: “In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances... are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible.”

This was interpreted by many, including some legal commentators, to mean that the court had concluded that the claim that Israel was committing genocide in Gaza was “plausible”.

This interpretation spread quickly, appearing in UN press releases, statements from campaign groups and many media outlets, including the BBC.

In April, however, Joan Donoghue, the president of the ICJ at the time of that ruling, said in a BBC interview that this was not what the court had ruled.


The ellipsis in the first paragraph obfuscates that the ICJ concluded that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. That some unnamed others, including unnamed "legal commentators" declared otherwise is not exactly newsworthy, nor useful. That the "interpretation spread quickly, appearing in UN press releases, statements from campaign groups and many media outlets, including the BBC" is likewise irrelevant, predictable and equally useless. In fact, all of those statements directly contradict the plain language from Joan Donoghue in the fourth paragraph, and is the thrust of this OP.

Your assertion that 'In 2024 they called the genocide claims "plausible"' is a howler and your link includes the massive punchline.

Then "In 2025, it’s what’s called a slam dunk. The planned death camps should be a clue." Hilarious!

EdmondDantes_

(639 posts)
34. Weird take that you find arguing over the deaths of a lot of people hilarious
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:25 PM
9 hrs ago

Can you explain what's funny about if that's genocide or just indiscriminate mass killing including repeatedly firing on people gathering to get food rations? Because best case scenario there's still a whole lot of dead and severely injured people.

Like I said up thread, if you're reduced to arguing that Israel is only committing mass killings and starvation and not technical genocide you've already lost any claim that the country is acting morally.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
39. And there it is.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:57 PM
9 hrs ago

I'm not making fun of anything other than the use of a cite which wholly disproves the assertion. That's been funny since I was in grade school and it remains so.

That you've suggested I find genocide funny is part of the dangerous semantics game used by those who continue to catapult Iranian propaganda. To be frank, it's, at best, you who are trivializing these allegations by suggesting that anyone other than a clinical sadist would find them anything but reprehensible.

BTW, I'm not arguing anything other than that the ICJ has taken the position that there has never been a plausible case of Israeli genocide. Look up. It's right there in the title!

iemanja

(56,283 posts)
37. That you consider any of this comedy
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:43 PM
9 hrs ago

is sick. We are facing death camps former PM Olmert himself says are designed for ethnic cleaning, that Defense Minister Katz says will eventually hold all 2 million Gazans. It’s as comedic as the Final Solution, which is exactly what this is. There is nothing funny about any of it.

For passersby, this is some context on the camp in Rafah: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=20503002

Response to iemanja (Reply #37)

sheshe2

(92,935 posts)
16. And Israel is not Netanyahu...
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:57 AM
Yesterday

Any more than tsf is The United States of America. He does not speak for me/ a majority of us any more than 'Yahu' speaks for all of Israel.

Martin68

(26,182 posts)
25. Netanyahu was elected by the people of Israel to, among other things, run the military. While individual Israelis are
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 10:16 AM
15 hrs ago

not responsible for the conduct to the war, the same was true of Germans who did not support Hitler's genocide. So, don't blame "Germany, blame Hitler?" It doesn't work that way. I don't feel responsible for Trump's fascist conduct of a war agains immigrants but I'm afraid the United States, as a country, does indeed bear the responsibility for his actions. The same is true of Israel. I know the many Israelis and Jews are opposed to Netanyahu's handling of the war. I don't blame them - I love them. But Israel must take the blame for the decisions of the head of state, just as the US must take the blame for Trump's actions. Until the military mutinies or the people of Israel forcibly remove Netanyahu from office, that will remain true.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
31. I'm old enough to remember some being chided for using "Palestine" in lieu of "Hamas".
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:54 PM
10 hrs ago

Ah... those were heady days, right?

Response to OilemFirchen (Original post)

iemanja

(56,283 posts)
13. Then let Israel stand trial at the ICC
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:41 AM
Yesterday

If the charges are bogus, they should have no problem defending against them.

sheshe2

(92,935 posts)
17. By your own words:
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:04 AM
Yesterday
Then let Israel stand trial at the ICC


You are condemning all of Israel! Will you condemn all of the US for atrocities that tsf is doing!

Words matter and these blanket statements need to STOP!

Cha

(313,103 posts)
21. I know how you feel..
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:39 AM
23 hrs ago


I just posted on here something that got me more upset than usual

Cuthbert Allgood

(5,304 posts)
24. Nobody is saying to put random citizens on trial.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 10:12 AM
15 hrs ago

But Israel is the country and the country, under the leadership of Bebe, is absolutely committing genocide. Of course that doesn't mean that every person who is Jewish is committing genocide. But Israel, the country, is. If Donald Trump ordered out military to do what the military of Israel is doing, we would 100% say that the United States is committing genocide even though I, a US citizen, am not.

It's not that hard unless you are trying to obfuscate.

Cha

(313,103 posts)
20. Aloha, Oilem... TY for this
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:35 AM
23 hrs ago

vid.

It's heartbreaking that so many wanted to teach VP Harris and Pres Biden a "lesson" and followed those who promoted "Leave it Blank" and "uncommitted"..

We were even told to "enjoy trump" by this Stupid Mayor that "endorsed" the Traitor.

Amer Ghalib, the mayor of Hamtramck, Michigan, announced his endorsement in a Facebook post Sunday, just days after meeting the Republican candidate in person. “I believe he is the right choice...

Yeah, how does it feel to be so Sucked in by a Rapist, Racist, Felon, Traitor to the USA?

I hope you're Well.. Good to see you.

iemanja

(56,283 posts)
22. There is a death camp being constructed in Rafah
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:10 AM
23 hrs ago

now, not in 2024. The Israeli government is constructing a camp for 600,000 Gazans in Rafah, which they then plan to expand to contain all 2 million Palestinians. Israeli Defense Minister Katz says the Gazans will not be allowed to leave alive, unless they leave Palestine altogether. Former Israeli PM Olmert calls them concentration camps designed for ethnic cleaning. That’s not a Hamas spokesman, but the former Prime Minister of Israel.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/07/14/middleeast/israel-gaza-ehud-olmert-concentration-camp-intl

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/07/israeli-minister-reveals-plan-to-force-population-of-gaza-into-camp-on-ruins-of-rafah

The plan is so evil, even the IDF resists it.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-said-to-warn-against-gaza-humanitarian-city-ex-pm-brands-it-concentration-camp/amp/

But Israel is nonetheless forging ahead

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2025/7/16/israel-presses-ahead-gaza-concentration-camp-plans-despite-criticism

We are talking about 2 million souls. This is a human rights atrocity of historic dimension.

As citizens of the world, we have a responsibility to inform ourselves on that which we defend.

Ping Tung

(3,068 posts)
28. All the Palestinian corpses are just collateral damage and unfortunate mistakes of a "Just War".
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 11:01 AM
14 hrs ago
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. Howard Zinn

iemanja

(56,283 posts)
38. The civilians are the targets
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:51 PM
9 hrs ago

Hamas is mere pretext. Also notice this video is from 2024 and is not current. The situation is now far more dire because of the planned death camp in Rafah.

Ping Tung

(3,068 posts)
40. I find it obscene that there are those that defend the murders, starvation, injuries, on innocent people.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:59 PM
9 hrs ago
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

Albert Einstein

Duncan Grant

(8,757 posts)
36. Israel has lost the PR war. Everything is forever changed.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:41 PM
9 hrs ago

This is as evident as the wetness of water.

Ethnic cleansing. Blood-thirsty, indiscriminate reprisal murders. The execution of untold numbers of relief workers and journalists. Thousands upon thousands forced to endure suffering and inhumanity and death. So much horror to assuage egos — it’s absolute evil.

And then there’s the matter of Palestinian children and their worthless lives. Unforgivable. Unforgettable.

Duncan Grant

(8,757 posts)
44. No one is falling for this manipulative and ineffective rhetoric.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 04:13 PM
9 hrs ago

You may be comforted by such statements, but it doesn’t mean the truth is found there.

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