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OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 07:05 PM Monday

There has never been a plausible case of Israeli genocide.

I've avoided this conversation for more than the past year. It's likely that this was discussed contemporaneously with the BBC interview, but that I didn't see it. At this point though, as people begin to finally realize that they've been duped by an extraordinary Iranian propaganda campaign, it would be immensely helpful if people would, at the very least, stop making the claim of adjudicated genocide... right?


The video is 1:28 long. From its description:

Interviewed by Stephen Sackur on the BBC's Hardtalk programme on 25 April 2024, Judge Joan Donoghue confirms that the Order made by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in January 2024, when she was its President, did not decide that there was a plausible case of genocide - contrary to some media reports.



Judge Donoghue: “You know, I’m glad I have a chance to address that because the Court’s test for deciding whether to impose [provisional] measures uses the idea of plausibility, but the test is the plausibility of the rights that are asserted by the applicant, in this case South Africa. So the court decided that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. It then looked at the facts as well, but it did not decide – and this is something where I’m correcting what’s often said in the media – it didn’t decide that the claim of genocide was plausible."
57 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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There has never been a plausible case of Israeli genocide. (Original Post) OilemFirchen Monday OP
The Order was made by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in January 2024, sheshe2 Monday #1
As I said, I've been staying away from the subject. OilemFirchen Monday #8
I do understand your staying away from the subject, I do. sheshe2 Tuesday #12
UKFLI Charitable Trust? Wow, YouTube is pushing the propaganda at you. muriel_volestrangler Tuesday #29
Here is the YT video for your first link. UKFLI is a front for apartheid, occupation, war crimes, and ethnic cleansing. Celerity Yesterday #48
BBC posted the clip on twitter shortly after the program aired, and it's still available on their website. lapucelle Yesterday #50
That seems like a bit of a technical cop out EdmondDantes_ Monday #2
From "Never Again" to writerJT Monday #4
This message was self-deleted by its author iemanja Tuesday #15
The ICJ is only one of many legitimate authorities on the subject of genocide. I have seen a number of very plausible Martin68 Monday #3
Please link to them all so I can read those as well. sheshe2 Monday #5
Try google, it worked for me krawhitham Monday #10
I'm pressed for time and you could certainly google the topic yourself, but I'll provide a few reliable links Martin68 Tuesday #23
None of those are authorities, let alone legal authorities like the ICJ. SunSeeker Yesterday #46
You clearly do not understand the meaning of the word "authority," but this is the answer I expected. Very Martin68 Yesterday #53
The issue is what consititutes genocide, which is a legal question, as it is a war crime. SunSeeker 15 hrs ago #56
You're referring back to a decision a year and a half ago, which of course ignores everything highplainsdem Monday #6
This Johnny2X2X Monday #7
Ethnic cleansing is not the same as genocide. SunSeeker Yesterday #47
There is no legal definition of ethnic cleansing. It is not recognized as an international crime. The only difference Martin68 16 hrs ago #55
Do tell. OilemFirchen Monday #9
In 2024 they called the genocide claims "plausible" iemanja Tuesday #14
This is pure comedy gold. OilemFirchen Tuesday #30
Weird take that you find arguing over the deaths of a lot of people hilarious EdmondDantes_ Tuesday #34
And there it is. OilemFirchen Tuesday #39
So no you can't explain what's funny about this EdmondDantes_ Yesterday #52
That you consider any of this comedy iemanja Tuesday #37
Post removed Post removed Tuesday #41
And Israel is not Netanyahu... sheshe2 Tuesday #16
Netanyahu was elected by the people of Israel to, among other things, run the military. While individual Israelis are Martin68 Tuesday #25
I'm old enough to remember some being chided for using "Palestine" in lieu of "Hamas". OilemFirchen Tuesday #31
Heady days, yes indeed. sheshe2 Tuesday #35
Message auto-removed Name removed Monday #11
Then let Israel stand trial at the ICC iemanja Tuesday #13
By your own words: sheshe2 Tuesday #17
Mahalo, she, for pointing that out. Cha Tuesday #18
Thank you, Cha. sheshe2 Tuesday #19
I know how you feel.. Cha Tuesday #21
That was a "that was then" then. 🤣 OilemFirchen Tuesday #32
Rolling with the Punches.. mostly. Cha Tuesday #33
Nobody is saying to put random citizens on trial. Cuthbert Allgood Tuesday #24
The ICC tries individuals, not countries. lapucelle Yesterday #49
Aloha, Oilem... TY for this Cha Tuesday #20
There is a death camp being constructed in Rafah iemanja Tuesday #22
😪 annalog Tuesday #27
Thanks for the links. nt cliffside Tuesday #45
Rec. nt LexVegas Tuesday #26
All the Palestinian corpses are just collateral damage and unfortunate mistakes of a "Just War". Ping Tung Tuesday #28
The civilians are the targets iemanja Tuesday #38
I find it obscene that there are those that defend the murders, starvation, injuries, on innocent people. Ping Tung Tuesday #40
Israel has lost the PR war. Everything is forever changed. Duncan Grant Tuesday #36
Well said. H2O Man Tuesday #42
Man, I'd hate to be an Israeli. OilemFirchen Tuesday #43
No one is falling for this manipulative and ineffective rhetoric. Duncan Grant Tuesday #44
I disagree ILikePie92 Yesterday #51
I'm not sure if its genocide or not. Samael13 Yesterday #54
This is a creepy thread n/t leftstreet 15 hrs ago #57

sheshe2

(92,962 posts)
1. The Order was made by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in January 2024,
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 08:29 PM
Monday

I am not sure why anyone would have an issue with this post. You/The interview stated facts of the court's ruling. Nothing kooky about that.

Thank you, Oilem.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
8. As I said, I've been staying away from the subject.
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 11:24 PM
Monday

This video popped up on my YouTube home page. UKLFI Charitable Trust had just posted it. I'd never seen it, so I thought I'd bring it here and, ya know, poke the bear a bit.

How are you She? Doing well, I hope?

sheshe2

(92,962 posts)
12. I do understand your staying away from the subject, I do.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:39 AM
Tuesday

Ah, the bear woke for a moment only to be told to take a seat by their peers.

*sigh*

I am doing okay, the best I can do in these times. It's hard for all of us. It really is good to see you again, Oilem.

Celerity

(50,982 posts)
48. Here is the YT video for your first link. UKFLI is a front for apartheid, occupation, war crimes, and ethnic cleansing.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 04:38 AM
Yesterday

lapucelle

(20,341 posts)
50. BBC posted the clip on twitter shortly after the program aired, and it's still available on their website.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 10:17 AM
Yesterday

Here's an embedded clip straight from the BBC.

Former head of ICJ explains ruling on genocide case against Israel brought by S Africa

Joan Donoghue, who has just retired as president of the International Court of Justice (ICJ), spoke to BBC Hardtalk’s Stephen Sackur about the case brought by South Africa to the ICJ over alleged violations of the Genocide Convention by Israel.

Ms Donoghue explained that the court decided the Palestinians had a “plausible right” to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court.

She said that, contrary to some reporting, the court did not make a ruling on whether the claim of genocide was plausible, but it did emphasise in its order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide.
26 April 2024

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919

---------------------------------------

What's really interesting is that both Ireland and Amnesty International want the legal definition of genocide to be changed (relaxed) so that the war against Hamas (or, indeed, any war) will fit the new definition.

Ireland will intervene in South Africa's genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice in The Hague in an effort to broaden the definition of genocide.

Ireland's Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin said he had secured the cabinet's approval to intervene in the case against Israel, and said that the intervention would be filed later this month.

In a press release, Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs said that "By legally intervening in South Africa's case, Ireland will be asking the ICJ to broaden its interpretation of what constitutes the commission of genocide."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-11/ty-article/ireland-to-intervene-in-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-at-world-court/00000193-b6d1-dd53-a3f3-f7fb1d410000

EdmondDantes_

(648 posts)
2. That seems like a bit of a technical cop out
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 09:09 PM
Monday

The court didn't rule Israel was committing genocide, but also didn't rule they weren't and didn't dismiss the charges as Israel wanted. The court granted most of the requests for Israel to stop doing things that do fit the definition of genocide.

How often does the ICJ feel the need to say a group has the right to be safe from genocide without there being a significant threat of it?

And really if you're arguing that "it's technically not ruled genocide yet", you're not really making a compelling affirmative case for being a good actor. Sure Hamas sucks but this isn't a good defense.

writerJT

(344 posts)
4. From "Never Again" to
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 09:20 PM
Monday

“What we’re doing has not technically been ruled genocide as of right now!”

Not a catchy bumper sticker, but oh well.

Response to EdmondDantes_ (Reply #2)

Martin68

(26,191 posts)
3. The ICJ is only one of many legitimate authorities on the subject of genocide. I have seen a number of very plausible
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 09:11 PM
Monday

arguments from other authorities that Israel is indeed committing genocide in Gaza.

SunSeeker

(56,173 posts)
46. None of those are authorities, let alone legal authorities like the ICJ.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 04:17 AM
Yesterday

You are citing activists.

Martin68

(26,191 posts)
53. You clearly do not understand the meaning of the word "authority," but this is the answer I expected. Very
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 12:13 PM
Yesterday

predictably you pretended to be interested in facts and other interpretations of those facts, but had already decided on your one version of reality and were not ever going to consider an alternative view. You, sir, are the narrow-minded activist. I believe there is room for debate on the issue of genocide in Gaza. I happen to have come to the conclusion it is indeed clearly genocide based on numerous arguments presented by experts and scholars in the field. I notice you imply that only a "legal" authority can present valid interpretations of genocide - that is an extremely narrow and unsupportable view.

SunSeeker

(56,173 posts)
56. The issue is what consititutes genocide, which is a legal question, as it is a war crime.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 10:50 PM
15 hrs ago

Last edited Wed Jul 23, 2025, 11:25 PM - Edit history (1)

BTW, I am neither a "sir" nor a "narrow-minded activist." And I certainly know the meaning of the word authority in this context. We just disagree as to the applicable authority. That's no reason to resort to personal insults.

highplainsdem

(57,454 posts)
6. You're referring back to a decision a year and a half ago, which of course ignores everything
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 10:23 PM
Monday

Israel has done since then.

Johnny2X2X

(23,095 posts)
7. This
Mon Jul 21, 2025, 10:32 PM
Monday

What the hell is wrong with people? Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have been slaughtered since this ruling 2 months into the war.

BiBi literally went on TV with Trump and said their plan explicitly. They are going to kill or expel 100% of the people living in Gaza, so they can sell their land to their real estate friends. It is the definition of ethnic cleansing and genocide. They’re killing dozens of civilians a day who are lining up for food. It is an absolute evil being perpetrated by a far Right government in Israel.

Everyone should be appalled people are still defending it, especially with nonsense like this from 18 months ago. Shame on you.

SunSeeker

(56,173 posts)
47. Ethnic cleansing is not the same as genocide.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 04:29 AM
Yesterday

Last edited Wed Jul 23, 2025, 05:42 AM - Edit history (1)

Serbs were ethnically cleansed out of their ancestral homeland of Kosovo by the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo, killing over 1,000 Serbs in the process, and nobody gave a shit. In fact, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice proudly announced the US recognized Kosovo's independence from Serbia in 2008, thus rewarding the ethnic cleansing.

Martin68

(26,191 posts)
55. There is no legal definition of ethnic cleansing. It is not recognized as an international crime. The only difference
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 09:47 PM
16 hrs ago

between the two is that ethnic cleansing can refer to the relocation of an ethnic group without killing them, while both genocide and ethnic cleansing can refer to killing all the members of an ethnic group to remove them from a particular location or population.

iemanja

(56,296 posts)
14. In 2024 they called the genocide claims "plausible"
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:51 AM
Tuesday
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o.amp

In 2025, it’s what’s called a slam dunk. The planned death camps should be a clue.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
30. This is pure comedy gold.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:51 PM
Tuesday

From your link:

In January, the ICJ delivered an interim judgement - and one key paragraph from the ruling drew the most attention: “In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances... are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible.”

This was interpreted by many, including some legal commentators, to mean that the court had concluded that the claim that Israel was committing genocide in Gaza was “plausible”.

This interpretation spread quickly, appearing in UN press releases, statements from campaign groups and many media outlets, including the BBC.

In April, however, Joan Donoghue, the president of the ICJ at the time of that ruling, said in a BBC interview that this was not what the court had ruled.


The ellipsis in the first paragraph obfuscates that the ICJ concluded that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. That some unnamed others, including unnamed "legal commentators" declared otherwise is not exactly newsworthy, nor useful. That the "interpretation spread quickly, appearing in UN press releases, statements from campaign groups and many media outlets, including the BBC" is likewise irrelevant, predictable and equally useless. In fact, all of those statements directly contradict the plain language from Joan Donoghue in the fourth paragraph, and is the thrust of this OP.

Your assertion that 'In 2024 they called the genocide claims "plausible"' is a howler and your link includes the massive punchline.

Then "In 2025, it’s what’s called a slam dunk. The planned death camps should be a clue." Hilarious!

EdmondDantes_

(648 posts)
34. Weird take that you find arguing over the deaths of a lot of people hilarious
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:25 PM
Tuesday

Can you explain what's funny about if that's genocide or just indiscriminate mass killing including repeatedly firing on people gathering to get food rations? Because best case scenario there's still a whole lot of dead and severely injured people.

Like I said up thread, if you're reduced to arguing that Israel is only committing mass killings and starvation and not technical genocide you've already lost any claim that the country is acting morally.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
39. And there it is.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:57 PM
Tuesday

I'm not making fun of anything other than the use of a cite which wholly disproves the assertion. That's been funny since I was in grade school and it remains so.

That you've suggested I find genocide funny is part of the dangerous semantics game used by those who continue to catapult Iranian propaganda. To be frank, it's, at best, you who are trivializing these allegations by suggesting that anyone other than a clinical sadist would find them anything but reprehensible.

BTW, I'm not arguing anything other than that the ICJ has taken the position that there has never been a plausible case of Israeli genocide. Look up. It's right there in the title!

EdmondDantes_

(648 posts)
52. So no you can't explain what's funny about this
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 10:31 AM
Yesterday

But keep telling yourself that you aren't diminishing the needless suffering by focusing on a technical definition of one group only saying that Israel needs to stop doing things that would be considered genocide (which they are not stopping like blocking aid). And so you have nothing but effectively saying "I'm rubber and you're glue" and accusing me of spreading Iranian propaganda.

Partisans of either side, Israel or Palestinian, seems capable of arguing in good faith or acknowledging anything negative about their side. It's disingenuous and only perpetuates the tragedies.

You can dissemble and pretend that your title inculcates against this being in a larger context, but that's simply not a believable claim. Not much thought is in complete isolation. You clearly are posting this because it bothers you that people are accusing Israel of genocide and instead of talking about what is happening on the ground, you make a fairly irrelevant but technically true point to distract from events on the ground.

iemanja

(56,296 posts)
37. That you consider any of this comedy
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:43 PM
Tuesday

is sick. We are facing death camps former PM Olmert himself says are designed for ethnic cleaning, that Defense Minister Katz says will eventually hold all 2 million Gazans. It’s as comedic as the Final Solution, which is exactly what this is. There is nothing funny about any of it.

For passersby, this is some context on the camp in Rafah: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=20503002

Response to iemanja (Reply #37)

sheshe2

(92,962 posts)
16. And Israel is not Netanyahu...
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:57 AM
Tuesday

Any more than tsf is The United States of America. He does not speak for me/ a majority of us any more than 'Yahu' speaks for all of Israel.

Martin68

(26,191 posts)
25. Netanyahu was elected by the people of Israel to, among other things, run the military. While individual Israelis are
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 10:16 AM
Tuesday

not responsible for the conduct to the war, the same was true of Germans who did not support Hitler's genocide. So, don't blame "Germany, blame Hitler?" It doesn't work that way. I don't feel responsible for Trump's fascist conduct of a war agains immigrants but I'm afraid the United States, as a country, does indeed bear the responsibility for his actions. The same is true of Israel. I know the many Israelis and Jews are opposed to Netanyahu's handling of the war. I don't blame them - I love them. But Israel must take the blame for the decisions of the head of state, just as the US must take the blame for Trump's actions. Until the military mutinies or the people of Israel forcibly remove Netanyahu from office, that will remain true.

OilemFirchen

(7,271 posts)
31. I'm old enough to remember some being chided for using "Palestine" in lieu of "Hamas".
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:54 PM
Tuesday

Ah... those were heady days, right?

Response to OilemFirchen (Original post)

iemanja

(56,296 posts)
13. Then let Israel stand trial at the ICC
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 12:41 AM
Tuesday

If the charges are bogus, they should have no problem defending against them.

sheshe2

(92,962 posts)
17. By your own words:
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:04 AM
Tuesday
Then let Israel stand trial at the ICC


You are condemning all of Israel! Will you condemn all of the US for atrocities that tsf is doing!

Words matter and these blanket statements need to STOP!

Cha

(313,133 posts)
21. I know how you feel..
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:39 AM
Tuesday


I just posted on here something that got me more upset than usual

Cuthbert Allgood

(5,304 posts)
24. Nobody is saying to put random citizens on trial.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 10:12 AM
Tuesday

But Israel is the country and the country, under the leadership of Bebe, is absolutely committing genocide. Of course that doesn't mean that every person who is Jewish is committing genocide. But Israel, the country, is. If Donald Trump ordered out military to do what the military of Israel is doing, we would 100% say that the United States is committing genocide even though I, a US citizen, am not.

It's not that hard unless you are trying to obfuscate.

lapucelle

(20,341 posts)
49. The ICC tries individuals, not countries.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 09:41 AM
Yesterday

It only has jurisdiction over individuals who are nationals of countries that are State Parties to a treaty known as the Rome Statute. Neither the US nor Israel are State Parties to the statute.

Cha

(313,133 posts)
20. Aloha, Oilem... TY for this
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:35 AM
Tuesday

vid.

It's heartbreaking that so many wanted to teach VP Harris and Pres Biden a "lesson" and followed those who promoted "Leave it Blank" and "uncommitted"..

We were even told to "enjoy trump" by this Stupid Mayor that "endorsed" the Traitor.

Amer Ghalib, the mayor of Hamtramck, Michigan, announced his endorsement in a Facebook post Sunday, just days after meeting the Republican candidate in person. “I believe he is the right choice...

Yeah, how does it feel to be so Sucked in by a Rapist, Racist, Felon, Traitor to the USA?

I hope you're Well.. Good to see you.

iemanja

(56,296 posts)
22. There is a death camp being constructed in Rafah
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 02:10 AM
Tuesday

now, not in 2024. The Israeli government is constructing a camp for 600,000 Gazans in Rafah, which they then plan to expand to contain all 2 million Palestinians. Israeli Defense Minister Katz says the Gazans will not be allowed to leave alive, unless they leave Palestine altogether. Former Israeli PM Olmert calls them concentration camps designed for ethnic cleaning. That’s not a Hamas spokesman, but the former Prime Minister of Israel.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/07/14/middleeast/israel-gaza-ehud-olmert-concentration-camp-intl

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/07/israeli-minister-reveals-plan-to-force-population-of-gaza-into-camp-on-ruins-of-rafah

The plan is so evil, even the IDF resists it.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-said-to-warn-against-gaza-humanitarian-city-ex-pm-brands-it-concentration-camp/amp/

But Israel is nonetheless forging ahead

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2025/7/16/israel-presses-ahead-gaza-concentration-camp-plans-despite-criticism

We are talking about 2 million souls. This is a human rights atrocity of historic dimension.

As citizens of the world, we have a responsibility to inform ourselves on that which we defend.

Ping Tung

(3,087 posts)
28. All the Palestinian corpses are just collateral damage and unfortunate mistakes of a "Just War".
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 11:01 AM
Tuesday
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. Howard Zinn

iemanja

(56,296 posts)
38. The civilians are the targets
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:51 PM
Tuesday

Hamas is mere pretext. Also notice this video is from 2024 and is not current. The situation is now far more dire because of the planned death camp in Rafah.

Ping Tung

(3,087 posts)
40. I find it obscene that there are those that defend the murders, starvation, injuries, on innocent people.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:59 PM
Tuesday
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

Albert Einstein

Duncan Grant

(8,757 posts)
36. Israel has lost the PR war. Everything is forever changed.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 03:41 PM
Tuesday

This is as evident as the wetness of water.

Ethnic cleansing. Blood-thirsty, indiscriminate reprisal murders. The execution of untold numbers of relief workers and journalists. Thousands upon thousands forced to endure suffering and inhumanity and death. So much horror to assuage egos — it’s absolute evil.

And then there’s the matter of Palestinian children and their worthless lives. Unforgivable. Unforgettable.

Duncan Grant

(8,757 posts)
44. No one is falling for this manipulative and ineffective rhetoric.
Tue Jul 22, 2025, 04:13 PM
Tuesday

You may be comforted by such statements, but it doesn’t mean the truth is found there.

Samael13

(45 posts)
54. I'm not sure if its genocide or not.
Wed Jul 23, 2025, 12:30 PM
Yesterday

But it is reprehensible for a country to target civilians. I wholeheartedly support the elimination of hamas i also know that Israel has the ability to get surgically precise when they want to be. I will always support their right to exist but the current netanyahu government is leading Israel down a path that will hurt the country in the long run

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