can hold more than one thought at the same time.

There's also the inconvenient truth that much of the sentiment surrounding what was happening in Gaza was artificially generated to use as a cudgel against Biden and then Kamala.

Now that those same views aren't generating the same sort of social media engagement, those same views aren't as prevalent. Funny how that works.

most. 51% would cover the word "about" and would mean is was "most".

... to remain productive and not give in to spare. I do not have a lot of extra energy.

ETA - my country has reports coming out from Dachau like *Detention Centers* in place like Louisiana.

However, not enough to put it in their top 5 or even top 10.

while Biden was President.

I know she does paid speaking engagements to friendly audiences, but she no longer says controversial things like the "President is engaging in "Genocide". I'm told that even during these infrequent occurrences she's pretty tame, and still no criticism of Putin.

She did her job,,,,again.

Sadly, she will be back.

The info you seek is out there.
https://www.gp.org/press_releases

criticism of her pal, Vlad Putin, the war criminal?

Putin is committing the same atrocities in Ukraine as the IDF is in Gaza.

Beside that, I don't read a quote from Jill Stein, just a press release from the "green party".

Other people are quoted, but not her. Interesting

No more protesting in front of the White House. No cutesy names for TSF.

Gee, I wonder why?

Then boom! Not a single protest.

so see, nothing has changed.

realize that those protests were a psyop.

Our media doesn’t. Today a kindergarten was targeted. I’m having a hard time with our Congress voting for more money for Israel without a statement like - no food for the children of Gaza, no money - at the least!

Times of Gaza -

Israel bombed a kindergarten in Gaza, resulting in injuries among the children.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Deported to Southern Sudan.

Other places, too.

and if American citizens are afraid to protest, we have serious problems here, also.

She’s pretty active on X. I’m glad to see she is posting a lot about the genocide.

“EVERYONE is now starving in Gaza, children, elders, healthy adults, even doctors are collapsing mid shift in hunger. Yet weeks of food relief is prepositioned & ready to go in a heart beat.

“Without US aid to Israel, this would be over now.
It's in our hands.”

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

and she isn't leading a rally anywhere.

And giving Elon clicks on X to boot!

Jill Stein is an idiotic Putin puppet.

and I would think it is increasingly getting to the point where one would be hard pressed to defend it.

Just curious - how much worse would it have to get? No more remaining buildings, no more surviving Gazans, etc.?

that we haven't already gotten there, but that there are those who are still trying to defend it.

Though I wonder what it would take to convince those others....

In the aftermath of those actions.

for there to be enough revenge?

Collective punishment is a war crime.

Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel, so it is kind of hard to leave them around, particularly after Oct 7, but 20 months of war has proven they won't surrender and are next to impossible to eradicate without horrific collateral damage.

It is time to just agree to leave Gaza. Swap prisoners. The IDF has delivered the message that Oct 7th was a bad idea. It is up to the Palestinians if they want more of Hamas or less. It would be nice if they had elections every now and then.

The IDF will bomb hospital and refugee tent camps.

Yes

Assigning collective guilt and inflicting collective punishment is a war crime.

Of course those are the views of the Israeli government too, and the "aftermath" of those views are the 17,000 + dead children, 9000+ dead women, who knows how many other civilians, the highest per capita child amputees in the world in a place with scant medical care; and starvation, human suffering and deprivation on a scale that should be unacceptable in a "civilized", rules-based world - though of course YMMV.

And kidnapped civilians. They killed 1200 in cold blood. Kidnapped 240. Videotapes of the atrocities exist if you look. They found children in an oven.

Are you shocked that those they attacked seem to have lost patience and humanity? Was this attack on civilian a war crime?

There were no children baked in ovens - or hanging from clotheslines or decapitated either (but there actually are many of those in Gaza).

You might want to look at the meaning of collective punishment and why it is a war crime. You might want to look up "atrocity propaganda " too.

Please tell me which of the children are responsible?

Not to be argumentative, just wondering why the children should be targeted.

And Israel kicked their asses for it. Now they are going way too far. A people that once faced the reality of genocide but survived is now pushing genocide on another people. It's just too damn far extreme than making up for the Hamas attack. This is now nothing more than a land grab with a side of genocide. If that is antisemitism then I guess I just am. Not that I ever was before.

Then I remember how Trump does not, in any way, represent my opinions or views. Perhaps the majority of Israelis feel the same about Netanyahu. I don't know.

It’s not different. They control Gaza but the Palestinian people protect and support Hamas.

But the constant accusations of genocide are unhelpful. My grandfather was from Poland, 90% of Jews in Poland were killed. That is what genocide looks like. Call it a Nakba 2.0, barbaric, brutal, abomination. Get a thesaurus and find whatever works for you, but genocide is just inflammatory and not helpful. And stop accusing Jews of being Nazis, that is just offensive.

And that's not counting those who live in Israel, or other countries like Jordan or Lebanon, but might move to a Palestinian state if it had independence. Gaza hasn't had an election since 2006.

Saying "Hamas is the Palestinian people" is just ignorant.

Does that mean Israelis are not responsible for the actions of the settlers? Of course they are. They are complicit. Same is true of Palestinians in Gaza and around the world. Just days after Oct 7, Palestinians were out celebrating in my city in the US. They weren't saying OMG what Hamas did was terrible.

What is happening in Gaza is terrible. We can all agree that children are not to blame and we would like to see an end to it. Trying to cast Palestinians as innocent victims and Israel as evil it is not a representation of reality. There is both good and evil in both Israeli and Palestinian society. After 75+ years of war, both communities probably have PTSD and other mental disorders. I can't imagine living like either the Israelis or the Palestinians.

If it were, you could excuse the actions of October 7th. After all, in 2009 or so, it was found that Gaza's children had the highest level of PTSD in the world. Some of these children, especially the orphans, grew up to participate in October 7th. But that is an excuse because nothing justifies Oct 7th, right? Not the 17-year blockade, not the land theft in the WB, not the fact that they were subjected to daily violence and brutality on and on. Nothing, right?

I don't know what the settlers excuse is except they covet Palestinian lands because "God gave it to them" - but they sure are sick people.

The point right now is to stop the daily killing, the ethnic cleansing plan already being implemented, the starvation and destruction. Yesterday 67 starving people were shot and shelled to death by the "felt threatened" IDF, hundreds injured, as they looted an aid truck of flour. Why did they do that? Israel won't let in nearly enough food. 19 people including children DIED of starvation in the last day. The IPCC warns that 22% of Gaza's population is facing CATASTROPHIC levels of hunger. That is the stage at which people stop dropping dead. Only in a genocide does this happen. It is man-made entirely and it's the height of evil.

I don't know about you, but all this fills me with disgust, outrage and infinite sorrow for these people. So please I don't want to hear both-sides-ism. There is only one side committing this evil for nearly 2 years now and as long as we're still engaged in both-sides-ism, and collective guilt/complicity moral lapses, it won't stop.

But if you think all of Israeli society is responsible for the actions of the settlers, just as you imply all Palestinians are responsible for Hamas - does that mean that you would also "understand" why Palestinians would go on a rampage killing all Israeli civilians they could on Oct. 7th? Obviously they too thought all Israelis were "complicit" in what they have suffered for 75 years... Plus PTSD!!

Of course not. Because you can clearly see murdering Israeli civilians for revenge is wrong. Yet you are still engaging in explaining why all Palestinians are complicit, your point being - whether you realize it or not - to excuse or rationalize THEIR unjust killing for revenge.

What I've seen revealed consistently from Israel's defenders and supporters is a very telling double standard where Palestinian lives are not valued equally to Israeli lives. If they were, there would be no excuses or justifications for Israel's brutality towards them.

Last edited Mon Jul 21, 2025, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't excuse Oct 7 as I I don't excuse what is going on now in Gaza. Both are horrible. My position is that Israel should completely withdraw from Gaza and complete a prisoner swap. I've said that repeatedly. That said, I do think I can understand why both sides act the way they do or at least I can try. With respect to the settlers, the notion that "this is land is mine, god gave this land to me", I'll never get, but there are potentially other arguments about Israeli security I could understand. Understanding is not the same as excusing or supporting.

I agree with you 100%. There are a lot of double standards with people trying to argue one side or the other is good and the other is evil. I don't think this is helpful.

Thank you for that, it is so refreshing and good to read. It's the "understanding" part that I wish more people could at least attempt to do. Every time I tried to say that here, you would think people thought I had two heads for even mentioning it!

Neither side is all good or all evil, I agree with that assessment! They are each dealing with the cards they've been dealt in different ways. Now if only they could see the other side as not purely evil - "animals"! - that would be a start.

When I criticize Israel it is not because I think Israel is "evil". It is because, based on the evidence I see, Israel is doing things that by any measure would be considered "wrong" at least, if not "evil". I did the same thing during GWB's Iraq war. Though I did think Bush was evil as I think Netanyahu is too.

It doesn't matter to me which side is doing the "evil", it needs condemning. If tomorrow Hamas started bombing civilians or starving them, I would condemn that too. As I condemn the killing and torture of civilians on October 7th and the rockets that indiscriminately killed during and afterward. I'm an equal opportunity condemner, you could say. It just seems like I am "biased" against Israel, but only because it is the one doing all the killing of innocents since October 8th!

Unfortunately Israel is not going to withdraw from Gaza nor is it going to let the Palestinians remain on their land. Every fact on the ground points to that. The time for speaking up against Israel's occupation and war on Gaza is past. It's too late. Had more people spoken out, say 18-20 months ago, when it was already becoming clear what the real plan was, it might have made a difference. But now, it makes no difference what your position is, it's already a done deal. Gaza is gone.

I'd love to see a group of Palestinians and Israelis/Jews get to together with each standing up and stating their position and explain why they hold that position. No rebuttals, no debate. Everybody is there to take a moment to try to understand the perspective of the other. I think it could be interesting. Could lead to a riot.

With respect to ethnic cleansing in Gaza, it could happen. There are definitely some people advocating for it in the government. With the exception of settlers, I don't think most Israelis have a strong desire to live in Gaza. To them, it would not be for the land, but to be free of conflict. If they took the land and moved everybody in to the West Bank, that wouldn't solve any problems. That is why I push back on the idea that Israel is doing this for land. Gaza is a tiny piece of not particularly great land.

If Hamas surrendered, released the prisoners, disarmed, and left Gaza, I think the rest of the Palestinians would be allowed to stay. 25% of Israelis are Arabs (Palestinians) and they coexist. Of course this is never going to happen, Hamas will never surrender. I don't think Israel will force out all of the Palestinians and I don't think that is the current intent, but there is no way to known the actual intent, I'd just be speculating. Time will tell.

Israel is starving people. Then shooting them when they try to get food.

This is a war crime.

Must be nice to write off daily atrocities so easily.

The fear for our own safety combined with anguish over what is happening in Gaza. Nobody I know is celebrating what is happening in Gaza. Nobody wants the death of random civilians, particularly children. We want Hamas destroyed or at least out of Gaza. After 20 months, I don't think this objective can be achieved by the IDF. The Palestinians will have to decide if they want them or not. I see no alternative to ending the war and seeing what happens.

In part because I'm not sure that they have any real way to get rid of Hamas.

And there is no comparison to the Palestinians in Gaza versus us keyboard warriors living comfortably far away from this conflict. With respect to getting rid of Hamas, I wish I really knew what Palestinians, particularly those in Gaza wanted. My impression is that they generally do support Hamas. There really needs to be elections in Gaza and the West Bank. Then we would know for sure.

There is the ASK Project where this guy goes around Israel and the West Bank asking people what they think about different questions related to Israel/Palestine. It is interesting, although you can never know if something is genuine or propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject

And where exactly is the mythical land you call Palestine? According to so many it doesn't exist and never has...regardless of what history has shown!

Just for future reference...it was Hamas and several other organizations that attacked an Israeli settlement...not Palestine!

then it stands to reason that there are no Palestinians. No?

There was, however the "Palestinian Territory" that was occupied by both Jews and Arabs.
C'mon now - you know the history.

I believe the "Palestine" that people refer to now-a-days is Gaza and the West Bank - areas that are proposed
to be the Palestinian State. I do think the UN recognizes it as such. What else would you call it.

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

And plenty of sadness over the loss of Israel being well thought of.

And plenty of sadness over the loss of world favor for the United States.

I can't say for certain that outrage at "Genocide Joe" tipped the election, but it certainly was a factor.

Now we are flooded with one outrage after another right here at home, with the loss of our democracy hanging in the balance.

Don't get me wrong. I am not transferring blame onto Palestinians in Gaza, whose suffering is orders of magnitude more horrific. Nor am I suggesting their plight should not be a priority on the international docket.

But we are even more powerless to stop the horrors in Gaza than we are to stop the destruction of our government by the Trump regime. In fact, defeating this regime is the only way to change US policy towards the Israeli government.

Trump isn't a dictator, the American people chose him. He didn't win because of electoral college BS. He got a majority of the votes. Almost 50% even. You may not have, I may not have, but the American people did. Americans aren't powerless. Americans got exactly what they wanted and it is horrific.

I don't know if I should comment on DU before I've had my first cup of coffee. I might say something I regret later, but I can't help but feel this way.

Americans believed a multitude of lies. When FAFO really kicks in as the economy tanks and they lose (or pay more for) health insurance, ask them if that's what they wanted.

Drinking my OJ now, coffee and a bagel come next.

something about it. But those Americans whose direct friends and relations are now being slaughtered were the very same Americans who went out of their way to trash Kamala's election prospects.

So now what are we supposed to do?

I'm sure Lefty College Kids, JVP and WOL are still very angry, but they're not out there being confrontational.

Maybe they know it's futile to demand anything of this Admin?

Their degrees withdrawn/held?
Put on a blacklist?
Sent to Sudan?
Ostracized as an anti-semite and their professional life ruined?

The rage didn't burn out. It's smoldering and channelled in ways hard to predict. But for sure the college kids got a lesson on the power dynamics in this country and how the world really works.

And I think you mispelled *unwillingness* in your title.

Last edited Tue Jul 22, 2025, 01:39 PM - Edit history (1)

but they're not in the streets either. The US Left has turned inward, towards our domestic crisis.

I didn't "misspell" at all. The US President doesn't dictate military policy to Israel - least of all a Democratic US President dealing with a Likud Israeli leader, and certainly not after 10/7. Biden stood by Israel after that atrocity, and Netanyahu exploited that support.

Now Israel has an even free-er hand, but they don't know how to end this siege.

,,, If my security clearance will be pulled because I am insufficiently loyal to the sitting President.

... and wondering if my wife's tenured professorship at a red state University is about to be eliminated.


In short, we have our own shit going on.