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Old Crank

(5,522 posts)
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 08:53 AM 20 hrs ago

How horrible socialized medicine really is.

A doctor friend sent me this paper from the NEJM about age/wealth outcomes in the US versus Northern and wester Europe. We don't look good in comparison.

From the abstract:

We performed a longitudinal, retrospective cohort study involving adults 50 to 85 years of age who were included in the Health and Retirement Study and the Survey of Health, Ageing, and Retirement in Europe between 2010 and 2022. Wealth quar tiles were defined according to age group and country, with quartile 1 comprising the poorest participants and quartile 4 the wealthiest. Mortality and Kaplan–Meier curves were estimated for each wealth quartile across the United States and 16 coun tries in northern and western, southern, and eastern Europe. We used Cox propor tional-hazards models that included adjustment for baseline covariates (age group, sex, marital status [ever or never married], educational level [any or no college edu cation], residence [rural or nonrural], current smoking status [smoking or nonsmok ing], and absence or presence of a previously diagnosed long-term condition) to quantify the association between wealth quartile and all-cause mortality from 2010 through 2022 (the primary outcome).

snip. Results
The gap in survival between the top and bottom wealth quartiles was wider in the United States than in Europe. Survival among the participants in the top wealth quartiles in northern and western Europe and southern Europe appeared to be higher than that among the wealthiest Americans. Survival in the wealthiest U.S. quartile appeared to be similar to that in the poorest quartile in northern and western Europe. (Bolding is mine)
CONCLUSIONS
In cohort studies conducted in the United States and Europe, greater wealth was associated with lower mortality, and the association between wealth and mortality appeared to be more pronounced in the United States than in Europe.

In short it is better to be in the 2nd quartile of population in Europe than the upper quartile of the US. Despite the money differences in health costs.

This is a scientific paper, for those who don't regularly read such things it is a bit dense.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bafo2FslnasByN8HqvsQbf9D1_bdMZrXzxC41iDUJx4/edit?tab=t.0

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How horrible socialized medicine really is. (Original Post) Old Crank 20 hrs ago OP
And you never have to deal with any of those incomprehensible medical bills Walleye 20 hrs ago #1
Those explanation of benefits that really explain nothing alarimer 19 hrs ago #6
I have a theory about one main reason gab13by13 20 hrs ago #2
Racism is the root of most of the U.S.'s problems. yardwork 19 hrs ago #7
Actually, damn near since the founding of the nation. Dan 17 hrs ago #20
If it wasnt for legalized corruption biocube 17 hrs ago #22
the only place things happen fast here is in the er. mopinko 19 hrs ago #8
Where do you live DownriverDem 18 hrs ago #10
had nothing to do w ins. mopinko 17 hrs ago #21
People that defend our health care system because of wait times... Trueblue Texan 18 hrs ago #11
I just scheduled a normal annual visit... bleedingulcers 17 hrs ago #17
Right? Conjuay 17 hrs ago #19
Don't worry. The stable genius is investigating. marybourg 20 hrs ago #3
In America old people are a liability. Diamond_Dog 20 hrs ago #4
Due to universal access to healthcare, Portugal has a longer life expectancy, surfered 20 hrs ago #5
The link doesn't work DownriverDem 19 hrs ago #9
This should get the abstract Old Crank 18 hrs ago #15
Taiwan decided US Medicare was a great model to use for their single payer system IronLionZion 18 hrs ago #12
omg i am a socialist. dawn5651 18 hrs ago #13
Lymphoma survivor in US bmichaelh 18 hrs ago #14
Freaking profit RANDYWILDMAN 18 hrs ago #16
Don't get sick if you can help it xuplate 17 hrs ago #18

alarimer

(17,143 posts)
6. Those explanation of benefits that really explain nothing
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 09:15 AM
19 hrs ago

Co-payments, co-insurance and deductibles. None of it makes any sense.

gab13by13

(27,779 posts)
2. I have a theory about one main reason
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 09:02 AM
20 hrs ago

that rich people don't want Medicare for all; there would be poor people in line ahead of them.

Think about it. I talked to people in Canada and they tell me they would never trade health care systems with the US, but one may have to wait in line longer in Canada for non-life-threatening procedures.

I'm not even so sure about that, I waited 7 months to have knee replacement surgery.

yardwork

(66,311 posts)
7. Racism is the root of most of the U.S.'s problems.
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 09:20 AM
19 hrs ago

There are too many people here who don't want to share because they're convinced that "other" people don't deserve anything.

This selfishness rooted in racism has been nurtured by right-wing media for decades.

Dan

(4,598 posts)
20. Actually, damn near since the founding of the nation.
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 11:52 AM
17 hrs ago

Except for a short period when Slavery wasn’t a thing, just indentured servitude. And then the Rich discovered that the “people” didn’t discriminate so much and they found common cause against the Rich. So, low and behold they found a vehicle that ensured the people would work against each other rather than for each other.

mopinko

(72,292 posts)
8. the only place things happen fast here is in the er.
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 09:41 AM
19 hrs ago

my recent trip through the medical/industrial complex took almost a year of f’ing around. ended w emergency surgery. wd have been at least 2 more mos if it hadnt gone hot.
the wait for a non-urgent colonoscopy is 6 mos, min. even after being in the er twice, the wait was 2 mos.

i wasnt in huge pain, which is the only thing that speeds things up. but i was almost non-functional. FOR A YEAR.

DownriverDem

(6,806 posts)
10. Where do you live
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 10:15 AM
18 hrs ago

and what is your insurance? I never had to wait that long or go to the ER. I have BCBS PPO Medicare Advantage.

mopinko

(72,292 posts)
21. had nothing to do w ins.
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 11:57 AM
17 hrs ago

i have united healthcare. they havent made a peep.
i’m in chicago. it’s not like there’s a big shortage. tho there r a lot of ppl who come here from elsewhere to the hospital that i ended up, i started w a chain that had 9 hospitals here. a couple r magnets for ppl in this part of the state, but only a couple.

i did find out, sorta accidentally, that if waits r long, go to where the rich ppl live, if u can. i got in to see a gi very quickly in the office on the far northshore, when it wd have taken almost a month to see the same doc downtown.
even so, i need a special ct, and it’s a 2 wk wait. last test i had was same. all those 2 wks start to add up. they got pissed at me at 1 e.r. cuz i knew that and came there even tho i wasnt dying. even tho i chose a sunday morning, knowing they wouldnt b busy. (another little secret.)

Trueblue Texan

(3,289 posts)
11. People that defend our health care system because of wait times...
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 10:19 AM
18 hrs ago

...ignore the fact that people have to wait for all kinds of medical services here, even a doctor's office visit requires a wait. That is really a lame excuse to defend our current, cruel system.

bleedingulcers

(69 posts)
17. I just scheduled a normal annual visit...
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 11:26 AM
17 hrs ago

with my Primary Care Physician. It will be in August! Tell me about wait times in Europe...

Conjuay

(2,378 posts)
19. Right?
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 11:38 AM
17 hrs ago

My doctor found I have a-fib in early February, and with all the "out of network" BS, I'm still waiting.

surfered

(6,300 posts)
5. Due to universal access to healthcare, Portugal has a longer life expectancy,
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 09:08 AM
20 hrs ago

…while healthcare in the US is the most expensive in the world. Our system of private insurance with its overhead and profit, adds about a 30% increase to our cost., while Medicare overhead is about 2%.


IronLionZion

(48,552 posts)
12. Taiwan decided US Medicare was a great model to use for their single payer system
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 10:23 AM
18 hrs ago

so we know how to do it in the US, we just don't want it to be universal for everyone. And still Republicans want to cut Medicare and privatize it for profit.

The US VA is similar to UK NHS and Japan's system.

Obamacare is similar to the Swiss system.

We know how to do these systems. We just don't have the political will to do it.

Then along comes a Luigi to bring lots of attention to the problems with our for profit insurance denying claims.

dawn5651

(699 posts)
13. omg i am a socialist.
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 10:29 AM
18 hrs ago

i grew up from 10 to now with zero medical debt...thank you tommy douglas

bmichaelh

(781 posts)
14. Lymphoma survivor in US
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 10:41 AM
18 hrs ago

In 1990, I was diagnosed with lymphoma.

It returned in 2019.

I was able to achieve remission in 2022 but only on the fifth type of treatment.

Three things had to happen for me to reach remission.

1) The attempted repeal of ACA 2017 by Trump and GOP failed. ACA or Obamacare provides me protection against lifetime limits.

2) My healthcare provider successfully appealed the payment of the drug against my insurer. It will not be done with this GOP President and Congress; but decision on treatment care should be removed from insurers.

3) The drug that worked was approved by the FDA the year before. Unfortunately, every time lymphoma returns it gets more aggressive and resistant to prior therapies. That is way, cancer research is important. Cancer research that Trump and Musk have cancelled.

Trump's policies are detrimental to my health.
Trump's is incompetent in healthcare; but he is incompetent in everything he touches.
I would probably have better odds if I lived in a place like Canada or England.

RANDYWILDMAN

(3,042 posts)
16. Freaking profit
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 10:57 AM
18 hrs ago

is all the big wigs care about in this country.

My whole life and it has gotten much worse, I was hopping there might be a tipping point in my life....have not seen it yet

xuplate

(79 posts)
18. Don't get sick if you can help it
Wed Apr 23, 2025, 11:38 AM
17 hrs ago

The last 18 months of my husband’s life—lots of 911 calls resulting in multiple stays in 4 different hospitals. He had original Medicare with plan F supplement referred to by one RN as the gold standard of insurance—so that was not the problem. The problem is that US health care just plain sucks—it’s the profit motive and moderate incompetence rule the day. Beware the cath lab—it’s hugely profitable. Beware the the large doses of prescription medications that cause your pharmacist to say “wow that’s a heavy dose”. Two times we were checked out of a hospital with the wrong prescription lists. One time he was able to walk into the emergency but left several days later in a wheelchair with oxygen because the the hospital’s cardiac team overruled his own doctor and one of their other teams and medicated the living hell out of him. There really should be a disclaimer above all hospital entrances that says “Abandon All Hope”. All of this was proceeded by decades of over medications that led to kidney problems. Then he was put on dialysis way too soon because his doctor thought it was a good idea, that it would preserve kidney function when in reality it hastens cardiac problems.


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