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orangecrush

(24,286 posts)
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 03:24 PM Tuesday

Female Soldiers Will Have to Pass 'Sex-Neutral' Physical Test, U.S. Army Says

Women in U.S. Army combat roles will be expected to pass the same “sex-neutral” physical test as male soldiers, that military branch announced on Monday, weeks after Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth ordered the elimination of lower physical fitness standards for women in combat. The change could hinder the Army’s ability to recruit and retain women in particularly dangerous military jobs.

The new test, the Army Fitness Test, will replace the Army Combat Fitness Test, and “is designed to enhance Soldier fitness, improve warfighting readiness, and increase the lethality of the force,” the Army wrote in its announcement. The new scoring standards will be phased in beginning on June 1, the Army said.

Like its forerunner, the new test will be administered to active duty soldiers twice a year, and once per year to National Guard and Reserve troops. If soldiers fail the test two times in a row, they may be removed from the Army.

The new fitness test is very similar to the previous one. It consists of five events: dead lifts, push-ups, planks, a two-mile run and a workout where soldiers sprint, then drag a weighted sled and carry kettlebells.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/22/us/new-army-fitness-test-women.html

Dump wants to run women out of the military.

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Female Soldiers Will Have to Pass 'Sex-Neutral' Physical Test, U.S. Army Says (Original Post) orangecrush Tuesday OP
Women are not wanted in the US military now. Irish_Dem Tuesday #1
We do not have the upper body strength of men. We just don't. I would not have met the male standards for LiberalLoner Tuesday #3
Pound for pound GenThePerservering Tuesday #6
You're assuming women are 'weak' GenThePerservering Tuesday #2
Wrong. orangecrush Tuesday #5
THANK YOU!!!!!! 💙💙💙💙💙 LiberalLoner Tuesday #12
Also, my understanding is that there are combat roles meadowlander Tuesday #22
My understanding orangecrush Tuesday #23
Civilian companies have to prove the fitness exam is consistent with actual job duties. Irish_Dem Tuesday #4
All it is, is the Army Combat Fitness Test with an event removed jmowreader Tuesday #7
"- tall soldiers throw the ball farther than short ones." 3catwoman3 Tuesday #9
no, that is not the only change, there is a more impactful change: Celerity Tuesday #10
This will impact few women Abnredleg Tuesday #11
Well, the NYT author and multiple DUers disagree with that take. Time will tell. Celerity Tuesday #14
They had originally planned to make the ACFT a single-scale test jmowreader Tuesday #16
"Brain before brawn". Does that mean that women are too smart to be cannon fodder? Ping Tung Tuesday #8
May god damn this mal-administration spanone Tuesday #13
This isn't the win the Trumpsters think it is. Aristus Tuesday #15
I would prefer it to be stated as a "gender" neutral physical test combined with an elocs Tuesday #17
Men have greater upper body strength & heavier bones & height. Women have greater endurance... Hekate Tuesday #18
Nancy Wake..and others... times when having a woman on the team is an advantage lostnfound Tuesday #20
Yes indeed Hekate Tuesday #21
This orangecrush Tuesday #24
Sick bastards. Passages Tuesday #19

LiberalLoner

(10,956 posts)
3. We do not have the upper body strength of men. We just don't. I would not have met the male standards for
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 03:33 PM
Tuesday

Push-ups….i struggled just to do forty in two minutes…..

GenThePerservering

(2,806 posts)
6. Pound for pound
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 03:41 PM
Tuesday

I'm a very ordinary 71 year old woman who lifts weights three times a week, and the pushups were no problem. And we're talking about strong, young women, not some old farte like me. Sure, some may not be able to do it, but a huge amount of young man cannot, either. Work at it - you'll be able to, also.

You would not believe what I see young women doing in the gym.

I'd like to see women rub that in that bastard Hogseth's face.

orangecrush

(24,286 posts)
5. Wrong.
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 03:38 PM
Tuesday

The tests were to accommodate for physical differences between men and women, not to make it easier for women.

And if you are wondering who was pushing this, here...


"Addressing "Gender Equity":
In the past, some advocated for reduced standards for women to ensure they could pass fitness tests and access combat roles, as discussed by The Heritage Foundation. "

From Google AI

Great answer from "Quora" -

"Adam Wu
·
Follow
Lives in Saskatoon, SK8mo
The military is not in the business of being fair. The military is in the business of winning wars.

No one sensible denies that there are physical differences between men and women. Asking female recruits to pass the exact same physical fitness tests is like asking a fish to climb a tree.

And that for the military would be fine, if all wars were fought in forests.

But what if that was not always the case? What if some wars end up being fought in rivers? If so, wouldn’t it help to have a few fish in your ranks rather than rejecting them all because they failed your tree climb test in basic training?

How much physical prowess does it take to operate a drone? Aim a sniper rifle? Fly a jet?

But let us even suppose that this is not the case, that at least among humans fighting human wars, a soldier who passed all the male physical requirements will always be a superior soldier than one who cannot. Let us grant this hypothetically.

So given a choice between a male candidate who can pass all the male requirements and a female who cannot, you’d always choose the male, right?

But what it that was not the choice? What if the choice is between a female candidate, and no one?

Sure an army of 1500 men beats an army of 1000 men and 500 women, all else being equal, but what if you can’t get 1500 men? How does a 1000 man army fare against an army of 1000 men AND 500 women?

By not requiring women to pass the same traditional physical requirements as men, the army expands its available recruit pool. This allows for the creation of a bigger army, with more soldiers.

And therefore, all else being equal, a more effective army. Even if individually every female soldier was a less capable soldier than every male soldier, and there were NO military tasks and roles that women can do just as well or better than men, on average.

So the real question that needs to be asked is whether the traditional physical requirements for men shouldn’t be carefully reviewed to determine if it is really necessary for them to be as demanding as they are, or if all they are actually doing is excluding potentially useful soldiers of all genders.

The fate of the ancient Spartans is instructive here. Their stringent military requirements and harsh training regimens were legendary, and their soldiers became famous for their badassery.

But what happened to them in the end?

Their numbers fell and fell. Their army of 10,000 became an army of 5000, then 3000, then 1000.

And then they got their asses kicked by 50,000 average Thebans."

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-they-say-women-are-just-the-same-as-men-and-equal-to-enter-the-military-but-they-then-give-them-far-easier-physical-fitness-standards-in-nearly-ever-way-Why-dont-they-just-fix-this-issue-by-making-women-go

meadowlander

(4,891 posts)
22. Also, my understanding is that there are combat roles
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 08:06 PM
Tuesday

where being massive and Hulked out is an actual disadvantage like trying to squeeze into a submarine, plane cockpit or a tank.

So if they want to create role-specific sex neutral tests for every position and those requirements were tied to the actual requirements of that role, fine. But if they did that, they may well find that an average woman outperforms an average man at them.

Irish_Dem

(68,479 posts)
4. Civilian companies have to prove the fitness exam is consistent with actual job duties.
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 03:36 PM
Tuesday

It cannot be used to screen our various groups in a discriminatory way.

jmowreader

(52,160 posts)
7. All it is, is the Army Combat Fitness Test with an event removed
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 04:09 PM
Tuesday

The sixth event, the "Standing Power Throw" officially or "Overhead Yeet" colloquially, requires throwing a 10-pound medicine ball backward over your head. The Army apparently discovered that success in this event is directly tied to height - tall soldiers throw the ball farther than short ones.

Or it could be that the casualty rate among the graders getting crowned by 10-pound balls was too high for the establishment to handle.

Celerity

(49,433 posts)
10. no, that is not the only change, there is a more impactful change:
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 04:28 PM
Tuesday

snip

The new Army Fitness Test eliminates the standing power throw, an event sometimes called the ball yeet, which is widely disliked by service members; it requires soldiers to throw a 10-pound medicine ball backward over their heads.

The biggest overall change will be in how the test is scored for 21 close combat occupations that are likely to be involved in heavy fighting in wartime: Women in those categories will be graded on the “male” scale, which is likely to significantly reduce the number of them who meet the requirements.

Abnredleg

(1,051 posts)
11. This will impact few women
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 04:52 PM
Tuesday

Very few join combat arms specialities, but those that do are usually very fit and motivated.

jmowreader

(52,160 posts)
16. They had originally planned to make the ACFT a single-scale test
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 06:43 PM
Tuesday

The old three-event PT test we had when I served in the Army, the Army Physical Fitness Test, had, IIRC, ten scales: five for men, five for women, separated by age. If ten soldiers each did 50 push-ups, 50 sit-ups and ran two miles in 15:30, they could conceivably get ten different scores at the end of the test.

The original plan with the Army CrossFit Test was to make ONE scale for everyone and set the passing/maximum scores according to not only age and gender but also by MOS (a numerical code that designates your job - like, a Field Artillery cannon crewman is a 13B). I'm pretty sure the branches and the promotion division sat down with them and went, "hang on for a second, set this up so a particular score means the same thing for everyone." Let's say you've got five troops sitting in front of you with ACFT scores of 525. If you had to use translation tables to figure this out, a 525 could be either maxing the test, doing well, doing okay or totally blowing it out your ass depending on gender, age, and MOS.

That was one of the two problems with the ACFT when they came up with it, and they corrected it.

The OTHER problem with the test is it takes too much expensive equipment to administer, and the overhead yeet used the cheapest equipment of all three equipment-using stations. The old APFT required a clipboard and a stopwatch.

Ping Tung

(2,165 posts)
8. "Brain before brawn". Does that mean that women are too smart to be cannon fodder?
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 04:20 PM
Tuesday
“It doesn't make a damned bit of difference who wins the war to someone who's dead.”

Yossarian, form "Catch-22" by Joseph Helle[r/b]

Aristus

(69,714 posts)
15. This isn't the win the Trumpsters think it is.
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 05:34 PM
Tuesday

It wasn't the women who wanted different physical fitness standards than men for serving in the military. It was the misogynists in the Pentagon who did. In 1978, when the Women's Army Corps was incorporated into the Regular Army, a representative group of women's advocates requested that women be allowed to serve in combat arms specialties. The bigwig generals at the time harumphed and said no, no, quite out of the question, citing women's "inability" to exhibit the physical fitness levels of men. They refused to allow women to serve in combat, and then posted physical fitness standards for women that were lower than those for men, which the women had not asked for.

Well now, all unknowing, the Trumpsters are insisting on women adhering to the PF standards they had wanted all along.

This was detailed in the excellent book "Beyond The Band Of Brothers", by Cambridge University Press.

elocs

(24,099 posts)
17. I would prefer it to be stated as a "gender" neutral physical test combined with an
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 06:44 PM
Tuesday

intelligence test and a decision making test to give a fuller, more rounded picture of the soldiers.

Hekate

(97,318 posts)
18. Men have greater upper body strength & heavier bones & height. Women have greater endurance...
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 06:52 PM
Tuesday

…and I think also greater pain tolerance. Women’s intelligence is equal. Women can learn foreign languages, code and all that great electronic stuff just as well.

But you know, being a war-fighter in the 21st century is all about muscles and not about brains. Hand those men a sword and spear apiece, and they’ll be good. Oooga-booga.



lostnfound

(16,928 posts)
20. Nancy Wake..and others... times when having a woman on the team is an advantage
Tue Apr 22, 2025, 07:45 PM
Tuesday

if you gotta go behind enemy lines and get information but be able to hold your own in a fight?

https://msmagazine.com/2020/09/02/seven-indomitable-women-of-world-war-ii/

Hegseth is UNFIT in every way.

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